Jesse Butts: 0:04

Welcome to The Work Seminar, the podcast for people with liberal arts advanced degrees considering work outside their fields of study. Hi everyone. Thanks for tuning in to another episode. I'm your host, Jesse Butts. Today, I'm chatting with Elizabeth Southerland, an MA plus ABD in philosophy from Boston College turned Information Technology executive. Elizabeth's forte is working in the Salesforce Center of Excellence, and she's done that across many large companies in a variety of industries. Elizabeth, welcome. Thanks for joining me.

Elizabeth Southerland: 0:46

Yeah, thank you. Thanks for the opportunity, Jesse. And thank you all for listening in.

Jesse Butts: 0:52

Before we dive into your journey from philosophy to IT, can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing now? What exactly is Salesforce and a Salesforce Center of Excellence?

Elizabeth Southerland: 1:06

Let me treat that in two channels. So Salesforce is a highly robust and competitive technology that continues to grow, and is largely known as a hot technology in industries relative to....especially cloud software. So I've been working with Salesforce for the last, say, eight years. I've also been working with Centers of Excellence, which is basically delivery centers. We're kind of end to end, mostly engineering, but we also do support. We also do analysis, so kind of end to end services.

Jesse Butts: 1:49

And do companies create these centers of excellence because they've invested so much,and they need to make sure that they have a good return from all they've spent on Salesforce or similar technology? What's the reason that these are coming about?

Elizabeth Southerland: 2:03

Yeah, it varies to some extent. In each of my engagements I've basically built or built up three centers of excellence at this point. In two of these cases, we've had larger organizations which were global. And we were solidifying into a comprehensive deal with Salesforce, which caused us to have a need to really centralize the cost management. The other one was similar in, in theory, but in fact, was a little bit more of just, We were using the platform to build up something that was pretty custom.

Jesse Butts: 2:53

I'm guessing that when you were in grad school, you weren't thinking this is where your your career would go. So I'd like to start there. So I'm curious. What made you interested in studying philosophy in grad school? Why did you decide to go beyond undergrad?

Elizabeth Southerland: 3:13

I was an English major when I started undergrad. And most kids are taking that last, the latter year if they're on the cusp. I didn't. So I graduated when I was actually 17 from high school, and I graduated because I only did three years, because I wanted to get out of undergrad at the age of 20. So after that, I wasn't really quite ready to just go to work. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I kind of toyed with the idea because my father worked for a newspaper as an executive director. And so I had kind of, I had a reporting job, and I enjoyed that. But my parents really encouraged me to just go get your degree. You can do it in a year, it's not that big of a deal. And from there, I really decided that what I really would prefer to do was major in philosophy and really pursue that further for my own learning, because that's what I was caring about. I wanted to learn more, I wanted to think harder, and I wanted to be able also potentially to teach in that realm. At the same time, I also had a real passion around literature, poetry, as well as music. So I was a minor in music as well. So I kind of have an array of different things that I was exploring and, of course, the crazy things you do in your early 20s. Like get tattoos and that type of thing.

Jesse Butts: 5:00

Or study philosophy.

Elizabeth Southerland: 5:02

Well, but that's what I decided to do, is pursue a master's degree. And then I performed well enough and saw enough of a future in that to pursue a PhD.

Jesse Butts: 5:19

And this was at the same institution, right? Boston College for both of those?

Elizabeth Southerland: 5:24

I actually went to undergraduate at Gordon College in Northeast Massachusetts, and then but I did my master's degree as well as my PhD work at Boston College.

Jesse Butts: 5:42

So when you were wrapping up your master's work, had you already decided that you were really interested in doing that PhD work and you want to pursue a career in academia? Or was there there any gap in between those?

Elizabeth Southerland: 5:59

There, there was a real gap. And it was a really kind of interesting one, because typically, Boston College admits a total of five people into their paid PhD program, one of whom usually is a master student from the institution itself. In this particular case, I was number six, and nobody didn't accept. So I didn't get in year one. But that's where I wanted to go. That's where I wanted to continue. And so I took a year off. And I did a panoply of things, including a foray into corporate America as well as waiting tables. You know, all sorts of other types of things that gave me a lot of life experience. So it was almost like, I felt like that year that I needed to take off that I hadn't had the chance to do yet.

Jesse Butts: 7:09

It seems like a...Little did she know that that foray into corporate America would be the foreshadowing into corporate America.

Elizabeth Southerland: 7:17

Exactly. Perfectly put. Yeah. Yeah.

Jesse Butts: 7:21

So when you did enroll for your PhD program, after that gap, were you pretty set...were you approaching that, career wise, that you wanted to pursue a career in academia? Was it more of, I really love this subject, and I just want to keep studying it? What were you...what was your mindset at that point?

Elizabeth Southerland: 7:45

That's a great question. And I've got probably three different answers that conflict to that, which is how my mind works. But my dad's perspective was, Well, what are you going to do with that? Shouldn't you just, you know, go get a job? And then there was the me that thought I was going to become this brilliant person. I was going to not just teach and be an academic, but I was going to be a brilliant, special person. Again, I was 21 when I was making these decisions. And then the other part of me had the practicality to realize that even though I was working like four side jobs in order to put myself through grad school, I still wasn't making ends meet. And so that's what ultimately led me to consider reality and appreciate the liberal arts training that I'd had at university and through grad school. And think about that a little differently in terms of how I wanted to apply that in my life. And in my career.

Jesse Butts: 8:56

So how many years were you in your PhD program before you pursued work outside of the field?

Elizabeth Southerland: 9:05

Ah, so a couple years. I cleared my master's degree in two years, took the year off. And then I was in my PhD program for...it was overlapping because I continued to extend. But it was one of those things where I'm like, I'm active, but I'm not active, but I'm actually working. But I started working in 99.

Jesse Butts: 9:35

So was the intention. I'm going to work a bit and do the dissertation on the side? Or what was that approach?

Elizabeth Southerland: 9:47

In fact, the original intention was, I'm going to work for six months because I can't pay my bills. And I didn't have a Sugar Anything then. Instead of taking the opportunity to go to Vienna to write my dissertation, which I could have done for free, but with no money. And debt sitting over here. So it was really a practical consideration. I intended to stay for six months, but I got such great opportunities. Once I started working, I didn't want to go back to that world where I'd seen how hard and challenging some of the just day-to-day life of being an academic...and working at these institutions might not be the best fit for me. And the opportunities that I was getting, in particular, to travel the world. I mean, I did projects in Singapore, Australia, South Africa, the UK, Ireland. I mean, I got to travel the world, and I got to learn new things, and I keep learning new things as I continue my career. And so that's why my six month contract that was just meant to pay off the bills turned into the, you know, 20 plus years that I spent in it.

Jesse Butts: 11:25

Those opportunities that you're mentioning, you started immediately in it, once you enter the private sector. Is that right?

Elizabeth Southerland: 11:34

Yeah, once I entered the corporate sector. And really, the reason that I did that is I thought about...You know, we make jokes. When I was in grad school, well, what are you going to do when you graduate? Flip burgers? I gotta figure out something better than that. But it was a real conversation that we had because the applicability of something like a liberal arts degree wasn't terribly well perceived at the time. And so I thought about, What can I do? I can write, and I can teach. So where can I do that? Where can I do that effectively, in an in an organization that will help me to learn whatever other skills that I need? So I was a technical writer slash systems implementersslash trainer, as we were rolling out technology in the context of an acquisition. So that's really how I got my grounding. And I learned a lot. And I learned fast enough, apparently, to continue to add value and actually moved into the management level pretty darn fast.

Jesse Butts: 13:00

As you were thinking about what you wanted to do, or where you could take your skills and education, did you start looking specifically for IT opportunities? Was it kind of applying for anything that seemed like it hit those criteria? What was that process into entering the field?

Elizabeth Southerland: 13:20

It was really, what can I do? Well, I can teach, I can read, I can learn. Yeah, I can write. What are the jobs that require those skills? So I really had a big smattering of things. And this one and several others kind of jumped out as particularly good opportunities in areas and metros that I wanted to target in which to live for personal reasons, family reasons, and so forth.

Jesse Butts: 14:01

So, earlier, you were mentioning that you made your way into management in relatively short order. When you did reach that level, when you were earning promotions, were you in a place where you thought, IT is where I've found a calling? Or where I really have found a niche, maybe a calling is too strong? Was it a little bit of, Hey, this is going well so far, let's see where it takes me? What was your relationship to the work at that point?

Elizabeth Southerland: 14:35

Yeah, super question. I would say that I was at least three promotions in, so I was a director at around the time that I actually conceded to being a technologist. Actually admitting that that was what I was doing, versus just masquerading in the field. So a lot of what I was good at was cutting to the bottom line, thinking through the scenarios, and breaking down what was really necessary versus a lot of the raccoons and squirrels, forget about the dogs and cats, that are going to be off to the side that you don't really need to worry about to just get to how much is it going to take for us to get this thing done? And what is the main thing? So it was that kind of thinking that I think got me into some of those higher levels relatively quickly versus learning a lot of the actual technology. But I also invested a lot of time in that as well. I think it's important for anyone who purports to be a technologist to know what they're talking about, and to understand the field, to understand the technology. And it's, for the most part, I don't want to say that it's not hard, or the technologists don't have really tough jobs that I can't do. But I at least know enough to know who I should ask to work on this thing. Because I know what kind of thing it is. And so those are the sorts of skills that have helped me to advance my career versus being really deep in any single technology. And I would also say that, harkening back to my liberal arts training, learning how to learn, and having a new thing that doesn't scare me, it's just this is the next new thing has really benefited me in my career, in addition to the logic aspect of breaking it down and, and saying, Okay, this is not this huge problem. It's these five things in these five columns, and these four rows, and you can figure this out pretty quickly. Let's write it down. So being able to build those truth tables, or whatever you want to call it, I think has benefited me across my career.

Jesse Butts: 17:29

Are you talking in the sense of like a PhD logician? You know all those terms, I've now forgotten, like, modus ponens and modus tollens and symbolic logic. Was that a forte of yours. and you were able to apply it to what you're doing? Or do you mean, kind of a more conventional logic of this? I'm curious where, if at all, all that philosophy, reading, and training is coming into work at this point?

Elizabeth Southerland: 17:58

Yeah, yeah, I would say at this point, because I have a good friend who continues to read her Latin textbooks over the summers. I tried to get her to throw them away in this last move, and I failed. I'm not like that. I don't do these types of things. So it's very much more organic when I apply my logical background. But I think in logical terms, and it's really more of those analytical skills that break through some of the things that are actually extraneous to whatever you're trying to figure out, and being able to parking lot those stuff. You know, that's really what's important to a conversation, and something you do in every good meeting. You keep to the subject, and you parking lot stuff. It's really that simple. What do we really need to figure out, then, where do we need to dig deeper. And where the conflicts that we're going to encounter ends up being basically project management 101?

Jesse Butts: 19:11

One thing I think what our listeners might be interested in is...You've mentioned that, I mean you had made yourself up to director before you started identifying as a technologist and things like that. Is that, in your experience, common for some people to make it that far without identifying with that earlier on? Or were you a bit in your thinking kind of an outlier? Just to give listeners some perspective about, you know, we always hear about, What's your five year plan? What's this or that with careers? But what has your trajectory, or maybe not trajectory, but what has your approach been, or experience been, in those terms?

Elizabeth Southerland: 19:58

I would not consider myself someone who has had this amazing career trajectory and I'm gonna, retire as a CIO or some higher level person. Candidly, I don't really want that. I'd rather retire early and possibly even go back to my roots and spend more time, you know, writing and thinking and not doing the corporate work. That said, I've had a pretty moderate trajectory, across my career, where I have learned to do the job that is the level above where I am before getting that job pretty consistently. So it's been slow and steady.

Jesse Butts: 20:56

So one thing I mentioned in the intro is that you've worked across a few different industries. I'm curious, if you wouldn't mind sharing, as you've been advanced in your career and you've changed industries, was, and it's probably not all this way, but have some of those been because you found a particular industry intriguing? Or was it more like a position in a different industry was intriguing, and the industry didn't really matter as much? What's been your take on industry in your line of work?

Elizabeth Southerland: 21:39

Industry, for me has been, I would say accidental. My first job after I finished and stopped working on my PhD, when I stopped writing my dissertation, was for a government contracting outfit. I had nothing but location to recommend that to me. I was there only a year, but then I spent nine years in pharmaceuticals. That company gave me an opportunity to literally do nine jobs in eight years. That was really exciting. And I got a lot of growth opportunities. And yes, of course, learn about a very complex business. But it didn't need to be the thing that... You know, a lot of people who fall into pharma, because of its complexity, kind of stay in pharma. That's fairly common. I didn't have a passion for it. That's just where I landed. And then from there, when they were acquired, I moved into a software company that was also pharma-focused. I did learn at that point that I needed to work for a company versus a software company, or on the delivery end than the service provider. And so that was one important kind of life lesson that I got. But then, the last couple of jobs that I've had really have had nothing to do with the industry. But really, my experience with Salesforce.

Jesse Butts: 23:27

Was there something about that software or what it does that intrigued you? How did you latch on to this becoming your, at least current, forte?

Elizabeth Southerland: 23:39

So it wasn't that I sought out Salesforce, I fell into Salesforce. So I wish I could say better about that. But that was, in fact, the case. I ended up being the person who got tagged to just sort that thing out. And I'm glad that I did. Because I do think that despite...I mean, every software has challenges. But on the whole, particularly if you can develop the right relationship with Salesforce, they're great to work with. I guess all I can call myself is lucky versus thoughtful in terms of actually falling into that vein. But it ended up being a really good fit. And then I ended up running the entire technology area for it until we were acquired, and then ended up with the other iterations, kind of along those lines.

Jesse Butts: 24:46

It's interesting when you mentioned lucky versus thoughtful. The word that I was thinking of was consistent. And what I mean by that is that you described, early on as you were contemplating your exit from grad school that you can think. You can read. You can teach. And it seems like you've taken that attitude, plus people seeing your good work and noticing it and honing, not honing...establishing relationships. And it seems, this is obviously just off the cuff, but it seems like that is a pretty consistent thread into what you're doing now. Like you haven't abandoned that approach.

Elizabeth Southerland: 25:35

Yeah, and I would say that if I do have any of those assets, it's, as I think I said probably verbatim earlier in the conversation, I learned in grad school the ability to learn. And so when there's a new hard thing, I'm a go-to. And there are people who say, We need somebody like Elizabeth to do this. And that's how I get my new gig. So that's pretty much it. That really has been a consistent trend, which has given me a lot of lateral experience and also accelerated my career as well. But just being that person who can learn the next new thing, which I think more and more is critical in technology because it's changing so fast, you have to be a person who can learn the next thing and apply it to what needs to be done. In you know, IoT, or whatever is going to be the next big thing.

Jesse Butts: 26:44

And sorry, IoT is what?

Elizabeth Southerland: 26:46

The internet of things. So...

Jesse Butts: 26:48

Oh, okay.

Elizabeth Southerland: 26:48

Like, technology, physical stuff, actually driving stuff that you do. That's really what it is.

Jesse Butts: 26:59

I'm curious if there are other...soft skills isn't quite the right term, nor is intangibles...but over your career, have there been certain aspects about employers or teams that you've been in that have made some jobs better than the other? That might not be things that we've covered already?

Elizabeth Southerland: 27:24

Yeah, maybe let me tilt that 35 degrees or so?

Jesse Butts: 27:29

Absolutely. Tilt away.

Elizabeth Southerland: 27:30

And that way, I can answer that really well. I really focus on and excel in building teams. I think that it's it's not just ..I mean, look, I hate the Yankees. But in 2001, I was a Yankees fan because of how they were being managed. And because I happened to move to New York that year and have a boyfriend who was a Yankees fan. So all of that being stupid background, the management of a team is tantamount to the individual star power of any one Kobe Bryant. And if you lose track of that, if you don't figure out how to get your team to work together and perform, and see how that's all going to work out...That's where I really focus. And I'm successful, not because I'm super brilliant and I have great code or anything. Nobody would pay me for my code. If they did, I would shame them. But I really think for me, it's the team-building capability. That's important for me. And something that is resident from my experience teaching because you've got to touch people at different levels. And you have tomeet people where they are, and they're not all the same place, and that's fine. But if you could also take that and build the connections between the people who are strong at this data, the other thing, then you figure out how to win. And so that, to me, is the magic.

Jesse Butts: 29:28

Did you see that correlation between teaching and connecting with people on an individual level to teams in your corporate work? Or was that kind of something once you started leading teams that it kind of clicked? Like, Oh, if I approach this with some of the lessons I learned from teaching, I can really do a great job with this.

Elizabeth Southerland: 29:53

It was almost like a late retro perspective. I just started doing it. As I started leading teams and realized where and how I come by it.

Jesse Butts: 30:09

If we could be a little introspective here...We've talked a little bit about, or I'm sorry, we've talked pretty extensively about your approach from grad school for looking for work and that you've stayed pretty consistent with. Is there anything else you have had to learn about yourself to find work that fits you? Maybe one of the jobs wasn't as appealing as another? And you kind of identified why that was? Or is there any other area where you've thought about what made this job better than the other that we haven't covered?

Elizabeth Southerland: 30:51

I mean, yes, there have been definitely jobs that I've liked better than others. And a lot of it, if I'm honest with myself, had to do with two things, mainly. Which was the challenge that I had before me, and the people with whom I worked. And maybe a sub-bullet point to that would be the company leadership. So those are some of the things that I consider when I made transitions, but I'm not a quick transitioner. I was born in West Virginia, and I kind of came out of nothing, so I'm not somebody...I'm not gonna paint myself as hardscrabble or anything like that. But I've been taught to and just sort of grown up appreciating that I can work and I can support my family. And so that probably has colored my, especially being Gen X, which is, I think, fairly common. My impetus to just stay where I am, and to build loyalty, because I build so much on that loyalty in order to be successful. And not rock too many boats. And I don't mind mentioning that maybe me a little bit of this is that I'm lazy. Changing jobs kind of sucks. So...

Jesse Butts: 32:37

I found personally, in my 20s, looking for a job every, I don't know, let's call it two years. That was totally fine. And I would get, I feel like I was...so I took it all so personally. And I always thought the next thing would be so much better. But I feel like around the time I got to my late 20s or early 30s, it was like, I just don't have the time to search this. Like, I don't want to spend my nights and weekends. I don't want to make the arrangements. Things have to be a lot different now, or at that point I mean, for me to want to really actively search for work.

Elizabeth Southerland: 33:16

Yeah. And my personal opinion is, there's value in sticking with it for a little time, not forever. It's served me pretty well. So I would just, if I could make any recommendation, if you're in a job that you're not getting anywhere with, leave. If you're in a job where you've got potential to grow, even if it's not going to be there and even if you could make $5,000 more somewhere else, maybe stay where you are.

Jesse Butts: 33:58

In terms of how passionate do you need to be about work, and I'm just speaking about you personally not looking for a categorical recommendation, but do you need to love a job? Is it more something that you like, or really like? And then outside of nine to five, orvwhatever the working hours are, you pursue other things? What's that relationship to work been like for you?

Elizabeth Southerland: 34:26

My work, what I get out of work, is part of my life. And some of it sucks. So cut off the admin stuff, cut off the forums I've got to fill out...all that kind of stuff. But my interactions with colleagues, my figuring stuff out, the things I like to do....There's these quotes that go out like, If you love the job that you do, then you're never working, or whatever they say. Very cute, but I think if you can get to half of that time being something that you love, even if it's just because you're working with the people, or what have you, that's a really good balance. And if you're not working 14 hour days. So that would be my perspective. And I've run the spectrum, especially with one. I was traveling and such. But yeah, it really, it's a balancing act. But it's not just, here's this category, here's that category, it's more of a Venn diagram.

Jesse Butts: 35:41

So what role is philosophy or scholarship playing in your life now?

Elizabeth Southerland: 35:47

I probably apply, from a work perspective, a lot of the logic aspects to things that I do so I can break down problems and then build out the analysis and get to answers pretty quickly. So that's kind of the tactical view. But I can also break down and kind of see through arguments that are off guard. That there just not valid, that type of thing. I can't think of a good example. But we've all we've all seen them. It's a red herring that comes through that doesn't really address the questions being asked. So those are some of the practical things. Where it really played into me is in my interpersonal relationships and my ability to collaborate across teams that have different perspectives. Because that is one of the main things that I think I learned through my philosophy practice is how to interact with and understand and reciprocate smartly with somebody who has a slightly different opinion. And I have a friend of over 20 years who actually lives downstairs for me. And she actually teaches philosophy. And we go back and forth all the time. She's not on the same page as I am, right. So we go forth. So it's part of my social life, too, in addition to my professional life, it's still part of my life.

Jesse Butts: 37:44

Were there any particular philosophers who inform how you think about work? Or in your working life, you've noticed that you think more about them than others that you may have studied previously?

Elizabeth Southerland: 38:00

So let me answer that slightly differently.

Jesse Butts: 38:04

Yeah, sure.

Elizabeth Southerland: 38:05

The philosopher who I studied the closelyest was Wittgenstein. And I would say that from a work perspective, thinking about that, in terms of the dichotomy of his early and late philosophy, and which basically boils down to, Here is the right, here's the truth, here's how you find it. And it's basically in your soul. And this is logic, and there are no parameters around it. Actually there are forms of life and people are weird, and this is how you deal with them. And here are some of the things that you should keep in mind, The forms of life, as he describes them. And looking at those concepts adjacently within a work or any other context has really kind of formed how I think about life in the world, including my work. But the reality is, none of us work in a perfect company or a perfect organization. We make the best we can out of it. And sometimes we can see a vision that is actually worth propagating into something that should be pulled forward into action. And then sometimes, we deal with people who have a slightly different thing, but maybe they're stronger than us. We have political angles, that kind of thing. But we have a point to make, and then we've worked with that person to get that point that we want to make addressed. So there's different ways to play that. And I put that into effect every day at work.

Jesse Butts: 40:12

For graduate students or people who have completed grad school who are in a similar situatio, similar to what you were where...I know you mentioned it was really financial constraint, but maybe it's more existential for some others. But people who are really thinking what they studied might not be the best path for their work. What are the questions or the one question you think they should be asking themselves to try and figure out where to go from here?

Elizabeth Southerland: 40:48

I guess I would say, Number one, figure out how you can afford it. Because a lot of people are facing student loans. If you've got a trust fund or something like that, good for you. Or are you going to need to work? And I would say that working while in grad school sucks, but I did it. And I know a lot of people who did it. And when you're 22 to 27, you can do it. You can get it done. There's creative ways to get it done. And it teaches you a lot about life, as well as school, as well as just life management. Second would be figuring out, Does this make sense for your future life? I am a firm believer in the value of advanced and liberal arts education. But I'm also a firm believer in the value of work. I've worked since I was 14. My dad worked since he was 14. So I come from a long line of workaholics. And I think that that's made me a lot of who I am. So I wouldn't cut that out of the picture. And if one were to be a student who wants to study some esoteric thing that didn't have really a real direction, who couldn't also work to supplement that, I might question that. If somebody was focused on a passion, who could also help to make that passion active and do the work that would be necessary to make that happen, That's what the world needs. And those are the people who I think, in my mind, change the world. Those would be my thoughts.

Jesse Butts: 43:11

I think that's a great place to end. Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.

Elizabeth Southerland: 43:15

Yeah, no, thank you.

Jesse Butts: 43:18

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Work Seminar. If you like what you've heard, please take a minute to rate the show on your favorite podcast app. Know someone who'd be a great Work Seminar guest? Or have a suggestion or two for the show? You can reach me at Jesse@TheWorkSeminar.com, or@TheWorkSeminar on social. and special thanks, as always, to Jon Camp for the music and Isabel Patino forthe cover art and design. Until next time, never cease from exploration.