Jesse Butts: 0:04

Welcome to The Work Seminar, the podcast for people with liberal arts advanced degrees considering work outside their fields of study. Hi, everyone, thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Jesse Butts. Welcome to another episode of The Work Seminar. Today we're doing things a little differently. We have a special episode with Paul Erdahl, who's an executive coach and career coach. Rather than an episode focused on somebody's story from grad school to their current work, Paul has been gracious enough to join us to share some advice and strategies for people like us with liberal arts advanced degree, who are looking for work they'll enjoy in fields that might not have direct or arguably even tangential experience in. So Paul, thank you. Thank you for joining us.

Paul Erdahl: 1:03

Thank you, Jesse. It's great to be here.

Jesse Butts: 1:05

Glad to have you. And just to give our listeners a little background, Paul, I know that you earned your PhD in counseling psychology, and that you you did work as a practicing psychologist. And after a few years of that, you made the leap into human resources where you worked as an HR executive at a couple of larger healthcare companies, which is where, incidentally, Paul and I met. We are former coworkers, and we've stayed in touch for going on close to 10 years now. And then in 2004, you found it, you founded, excuse me, your own business, where you've been helping executives find work, as well as improve their performance at work.

Paul Erdahl: 1:47

Right. Since 2014. Just to clarify.

Jesse Butts: 1:50

Oh, I'm sorry. 2014.

Paul Erdahl: 1:52

Yeah.

Jesse Butts: 1:53

Yeah, we would have been coworkers when I was in college if that were 2004. All right. Anything else about your background before we get into it you think our listeners should know? Or should we just go ahead and get right started?

Paul Erdahl: 2:05

No, I do think...thank you, Jesse for that overview. As you mentioned, I started with dreams of being a career psychologist doing therapy and working with people, in particular people in hospital-based settings with chronic disease or other types of things, but then moved into the HR space, and in particular, in the areas of organizational development and leadership development. And so that's what I've been doing. And some of the things we'll talk about today are really based on working with people who have gone through transition in their careers, and how did they make that transition? And what types of things that they need to reflect on and think about? And how did they make that happen?

Jesse Butts: 2:46

All right, perfect. That sounds great. So as you already know, our listeners have advanced degrees in a liberal arts field. Let's just start off with a hypothetical. So say somebody with that background...Maybe they've been teaching or adjunct teaching, or they've been working a variety of different jobs to make ends meet. And now they're ready for a change. Maybe they want more stable income, maybe they want better hours, maybe what they thought they would love after grad school didn't quite pan out. Overall, it's this feeling of being stuck. So when you're sitting in a situation like this, where you do feel stuck, what do you recommend? Where do we even begin with something seemingly so large and overwhelming to some?

Paul Erdahl: 3:37

Well, the way you've just outlined that it is large, and it is overwhelming. And I think for many people, that is the challenge that they really face, is thinking about, What are the things that I'm looking for? Am I looking for a better salary? Am I looking for a job that is just 40 hours a week? Or do I really want to do something that's new or different? Maybe aligned with a sense of purpose or passion that I have about something? How do I start to get into that kind of an environment and be doing something I find meaningful and something that's rewarding? You know, the big question, Jesse, and the thing where I really start with people, when I work with them is to be thinking about, let's start with, how do you answer the question, What do you want to do? And that's something that many people struggle with. Because the answer is, I don't know what I want to do. And I don't know exactly how to get there from here. And so part of the challenges, and the opportunity, is really to stop and say, Well, let's reflect on areas that you've experienced throughout your life, whether it be through your schooling, growing up, in your career that you've had thus far. What are those things that you really value? What are those things you appreciate? And really starting with that personal self exploration, to get a sense of, Okay, what's going to be meaningful and relevant? And what's most important to me as I go forward?

Jesse Butts: 5:03

Can we pause there for a second?

Paul Erdahl: 5:05

Mmhmm.

Jesse Butts: 5:06

So a lot of our guests, they love being in history class and spending time in the library. So they've gotten, you know, that PhD in history, and they really thought a tenure track position would be that fit. And maybe it's because of market reasons or other factors, that just isn't going to be reality. So how, how do you use this type of assessment, these questions, to, for lack of a better term, it probably isn't the the one you use in your field, but to come up with a plan B?

Paul Erdahl: 5:39

Right.

Jesse Butts: 5:40

You know, where were the first thing that you really felt passionate about, for whatever reason, just isn't something you can attain, or you feel that the work to attain it isn't worth it.

Paul Erdahl: 5:52

Right. And I think Jesse, and I can certainly share, I started my career, my passion, my desire, right out of undergraduate, I wanted to be a therapist. That's what I wanted to be. And I wanted to focus on working with people, and I wanted to be in those kinds of environments. And I did that for about 5, 6, 7, 8 years, I forget exactly how long it was. But after a time it was, we all mature, we all grow, we all start to experience different things. We start to understand some different things. And I think even if it's something, and you're kind of describing a different scenario where that is what I love to do but there's nothing there for me to or no place for me to take that. And so either one of those scenarios really calls on us to stop and say, Okay, how do I look at myself? How do I look a little bit at the world of work? How do I start to think differently about things? And where can I take my skills? And how can I transfer those into a different situation and a different setting? And how do we think about those...And I know, even even when I wanted to move out of my career, my identity and my self image, and the way I conceptualize things, was very much as a therapist and a psychologist. And I didn't even know how to spell HR at that point. And it was yet an opportunity for me to start to think about how do I leverage these skills in these abilities in a different context? And I think whether you're a history major, or an English major, or you've been a philosopher or whatever, how do you start to think about, What are those skills and capabilities that I have? And how can I step into a different environment and leverage those to add value? And to do something that I find that's meaningful and relevant for me?

Jesse Butts: 7:45

What are some of those questions or exercises that you encourage people to run through to be able to ascertain that about themselves?

Paul Erdahl: 7:54

Yeah, it's, it's something that I really asked people to kind of really reflect backwards, not just to, here's what my degree is, and therefore this is what I need to do. But think think back even further into your junior high, your high school years. What were those things? And in college. What are those things that you really enjoyed? What did you really value? Where did you find yourself getting excited and really enjoying a class? Or, or an experience that you had? It might have been, if people had a chance to study abroad or in different contexts or different cultures, What were those things that they really enjoyed? And what...really driving that down to, What were you doing in that situation? And what was it about that that you really found valuable? Was it something where you were helping other people? Was it something where you were doing research and exploring and trying to understand new ideas? Was it something that you were just engrossed in, in terms of your own personal learning on things? I know for me, I know, as I think back, I can think about all those science projects I did in junior high, in high school that I really loved doing. And I shared with many people, I originally when I started as an undergraduate, thought I was going to be a biology major, until I took college level biology. And it was like the worst class I'd ever taken in my life. And it became sort of these moments where you say, That was really good to a point. But what were those moments where I really started to understand and see where could I apply things differently? And so from the biology degree to a psychology degree, it was transferring to, Well, I wanted something that was much more people oriented than working in a laboratory, dissecting things or studying things. I needed that affiliation with other people. It's actually a value, something that I bring to the to the table. I value working and being engaging with other people. And so how do I start to bring that then and think about where can I leverage those skill sets and capabilities to engage in that type of environment>

Jesse Butts: 10:04

Yeah, you bring up something really interesting, and something I didn't consider until later than I wish, which is the values. I think, in school, we're so obsessed, focused, you know, pick your term, with what we're studying, we forget about the the world outside of that. When I started in marketing, it was kind of a fluke. I knew I just wanted to do something with writing, which I had trained in. And I knew, I liked being creative. But it wasn't until I really figured out that I like being creative, I like being strategic, I like being curious. And those are very valuable to me. And using those to help a person or a company really do their best work for the audience they care most about.

Paul Erdahl: 10:58

Right.

Jesse Butts: 10:59

That's when it all kind of made sense to me. And once I had, and this is something I've borrowed from a book called Unique Ability. But once you...in my situation, what they advocate is figuring out the values that are important to you, and what you really like to do, and when you can marry those, it's not like this magic dream job will necessarily pop up. But you'll be able to start framing things exactly in a way where you can look at things a little bit more like, or less than, Oh, this is one line item in the job description. But is overall this something that fits in with those values, married with the things that I do well and enjoy doing?

Paul Erdahl: 11:44

Yeah, well, you have just framed it up perfectly, Jesse, and I think you've identified what are those underlying, regardless of what you've studied, regardless of what career you're in now, what are those things? If you think about classic career coaching kind of perspective, it's about what are your values? What are those things that are important to you that you need to have in your ideal job? What are those things you're interested in? And in terms of, and we can go into this in terms of what type of work do you like to do, with whether it's retail or research or academic kind of environments, How do you start to think about where do you like to be? And then it's also bringing not just your values and your interests but your skills and abilities to bear? And what skills and abilities have you had? I know people that a lot of people in academics are people who have developed very interesting skills on the side where they've been...they have artistic skills or capabilities that they've leveraged, or they spend their summers when they have off doing construction work or other types of things. They start to develop this portfolio of skills that isn't necessarily tied directly to their career, but they have all these skills and abilities. And then lastly, Is there any particular knowledge and expertise that you bring to the table? Because exactly what you said is, How do you bring all those things together through a self exploration sort of process to understand what those elements of yourself are? And then how do you start to go looking for career opportunities that align with those?And it's one thing to get a job, it's another thing to be able to be doing what you love and you're passionate about. And there's a time and a place for both of those. So don't get me wrong. I'm certainly aware sometimes I just need a job right now. But in the long term, I'm hoping, certainly my value is I hope people can be doing work that they value, and they feel rewarding, and they feel passionate and have a sense of purpose about.

Jesse Butts: 13:52

Yeah, and I think for some of us, that differs. Some may wholeheartedly seek what you're describing. Others may be more in a spot where, I really, really confining it to nine to five with decent income so that after work, I can get back into the studio, or write or paint or research or whatever. They're not looking to supplant that passion from what they studied. They're looking for something to enable that. But still, to your point, I mean, it's still important to find jobs that will make that nine to five something more than simply bearable.

Paul Erdahl: 14:37

Well, and at the risk of being too optimistic, I think there may be opportunities out there to be doing those things that you love after work. How do you start to find opportunities where you can do at least some of that, or part of that, or be around other people who are doing similar types of things that you can do in that space? I certainly know and understand that. There are times when a job is a means to an end, when it is something that provides you with the income, the benefits, whatever it might be, and then your passion and purpose is outside of work. But on the other side is, Is there any chance you can find that sense of passion and purpose in your work? And is that even, is that possible? So, to some of your listeners who may be coming from a, I just wanted to be a professor, a tenured professor someplace teaching or doing something that was aligned with sort of a non professional career as we think about in business types of things, but more of an academic type of career. I certainly know there are a lot of people who have come out of academic settings that have amazing skills, amazing knowledge, amazing experience, that if they can translate it into a language and into a value proposition, as we say in business, where you can say, Here's how I can bring value, and I can bring and have an impact for business, leveraging my skills. Those opportunities, I think they're out there. They may be hard to find, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna soft sell that too much. But it may be hard to find, but I think it might be worth looking for, depending on what your circumstances are. I think there are times, and I know, I've kind of been through different transitions and times in my life, when I knew I took a job that was a temporary job. You know, it was good for me, met my basic needs that I needed to have met. But it wasn't something I wanted to be doing long term. But if you can find that opportunity, where you're doing what you love, and you're passionate about, even during that 40 hour work week, every week, that's a huge opportunity.

Jesse Butts: 16:52

And before we we move on to the steps after you do this self discovery, just one last question about that process. Is this something where this is...one evening, we just open up a spiral notebook and just start rattling through these questions? Is this, I'm sure it differs for a lot of different people you work with, but how much time should we plan on this initial step of really coming to terms and understanding, outside of pure academics, what we really value, what we're good at, and what will be important to us in our work?

Paul Erdahl: 17:36

Yeah, great question. I think it probably takes more time than most people think it does. And it is something that, that the homework assignment that I give people, I actually have a list of about 15,20 questions that I tell people, I just want you to go, I want you to put pen to paper, I want you to write out your answers to these questions. And I want you to think about things. So I have the list in front of me where I ask people, you know, first question is...In the past year, what have been those career conversations going on in your head? What's the dialogue that you're having with yourself? Get people to become more self aware of things. I ask people to think about their career and what are those things that that really regenerate them. And what are those things that just drain their energy? What are those things that they may have to do, or there may be things that they sometimes get stuck doing, that just is not in the ballpark that they want to be in? I also ask people to think about accomplishments that they've had over the years. I asked people to think about, What are the five words that you would use to describe yourself? And when you're at your best, what are those five words that you would use? And then how would people, your friends, your family, your colleagues, What are the five words you they might use to describe you? And then I get into some of the things we talked about, What are your three to five core values that you think really guide you in your life? Or, describe what you're doing in your best job ever if you could design it. And if you knew you couldn't fail, what would you be doing right now? And really start to help people dig into and reflect on and think about these questions. And then, in my coaching practice, what I will do is we'll spend several hours just going through these questions to understand what what's behind what people are thinking about. And as an aside, there are some tools and other types of things that might also help kind of spark some thinking. And many people have used things like a Myers Briggs, or their career interest inventories, or different things that are out there. And there are some, and I'd be happy to share some that are free online versions of things. But it's just a way to help. To your point earlier, it's a framework. How do I start to frame up who am I? What are my values? What are my interests? What do I care about? And what are the environments or the spaces or the things I want to be doing, and the places I want to be in, what do they begin to look like for me? And if people have got that all in a box, and they say, Well, it's the job I have. right now. We really kind of have to break that box open a bit. And we really have to start saying, Your world is too narrow. You have to begin to think outside of that box. Because there are other places where you can do and leverage those same values and skills and capabilities and interests.

Jesse Butts: 20:32

And we'll definitely add in the show notes some links or descriptions of some of those resources. Paul, thank you for mentioning those. It sounds like to whether you're talking about outside the box, I guess the way I think about it is an underlying value. You know, and again, if someone says, Well, I loved studying medieval French history, something I know very little about, and if there are any medieval French history listeners out there, I apologize profusely for using this as an example. But to me, that's not...that's an interest. It's not a value. But if you dig deeper, it's something like, I really love researching topics that have fallen to the wayside, or that involve people. Once you can kind of separate that particular academic interest or just general interest to what's beneath the surface.

Paul Erdahl: 21:32

Yeah.

Jesse Butts: 21:32

You know, for me, I mean, I've really enjoyed writing, and I always associated that largely with my identity. And I do a little bit less now as I've grown older, but, this is very cliche, but a lot of people might think, What is it about writing? And for some people, that's, you know, they're more in the editor role. They love turning chaos into something usable. Or if they're more on the writing side, and they really love creative writing, because they love creating stories or highlighting other people's stories. Those are very broad, broadly applicable, underlying values.

Paul Erdahl: 22:13

The thing I would add to that, though, Jesse, as I'm listening to you, and I'll pick on you as the writer here for a second...

Jesse Butts: 22:19

Please.

Paul Erdahl: 22:20

That as a writer, I mean, writing is a skill. Writing is a capability that you have, but the question is, How do you leverage your writing to add value? And so, and I know from having worked with you in the past, you're somebody who can create a story that helps communicate effectively to employees in an organization, to customers who might be interested in products. You have the ability to take the information and eloquently kind of create an engaging, interesting storyline that does engage people in a process that might be involving selling something, or promoting something or whatever it might be. That the writing is a means to an end. And what you were just describing is, at the end of the day, you're not a writer. People aren't going to hire you just to write. They're going to hire you because you can communicate and you can, you can sell and you can inspire and you can motivate and you can do all those things through effective writing as a skill set that many, many people don't have.

Jesse Butts: 23:32

Yeah, absolutely. I would add to that, you can find work as a writer. But you're not going to, or you're very likely not going to, move up in pay scale and responsibility, if you cling to that writer identity.

Paul Erdahl: 23:49

Right. So I'm curious, Jesse, I mean, you did move up in an organization. You were there. And as you started to think about be taking on greater responsibility, starting from that writing background, as people become...you think about people in an organization that become more and more senior leaders, it's because they're able to then use their knowledge and their expertise to think more broadly. To think about, What are these messages that we need to create? When I think about coaching executives, it's about you have to motivate people, you have to inspire people, you have to set strategy, you have to set direction, you have to have a vision or mission, all those types of things at every step along the way. It requires more and more complex and broad thinking about what are the messages that we want to communicate. And so likewise, your friend with a, I forget what you described it as, the French history major who has a certain background and knowledge. Well, it might be a narrow focus in terms of knowledge, but what it tells me is, This is somebody who knows how to think. This is somebody who knows how to conceptualize, knows how do we learn from history? What are the lessons from those experiences? What are the things that ... How do we begin to think about why is that relevant today? And how do I think about where would there be similar types of things? It may not be about French history, but where are there similar opportunities to leverage my interest in learning and telling stories and communicating to others? And how can I do that?

Jesse Butts: 25:36

Just to kind of reground ourselves in, not in reality, but in the process a bit. So let's say, let's assume that we've done the homework. We have this really good sense of our values, the work we do, why it why it matters, what type of value we can add to a company. From there, what do you recommend as steps to figure out what are jobs that align to this? Or maybe maybe a different way to approach that is, How do I need to view things to see if this is a good fit? You know, maybe it's not so much about, Here are three or four job titles, as it is, Here are three or four key things I want to see from an employer. Can you give us a little advice in that arena?

Paul Erdahl: 26:34

Yeah. And just to even back up from that discovery process, those conversations, starting to think about what are the transferable skills that people have, to start to think out of the box and start to bring people into thinking about, Well, where might these skills be applicable? The first thing that I really work on, or the second thing after we've done the exploration, is to focus on how are you going to articulate that. And the analogy that I always use is, if you're at a party, if you're out with friends, or you're doing it not in the middle of COVID, if you have a chance to get out with friends and you're talking to people, and inevitably in the conversation, you know, the question comes up, Well, tell me about yourself? So you're meeting new people, you're connecting with new people, and the question is, How do you answer that? And it's easy for me to say, Well, for me, I grew up in Minnesota, I come from a family of five, I do this, here's what I'm interested in. But none of that is terribly helpful if I'm looking to change careers. So what I encourage people is to, every time somebody asks you a question like that, so tell me about yourself, that is a career opportunity for you to tell your personal story. In my vernacular, it's, What's your personal brand? What is it that you want to say about yourself? And how does that help people to understand who you are, and how you add value, and can add value in different kinds of work environments, because that becomes the essence of that. That story, which I encourage people, by the way, speaking to a writer, is 250 words or less. So it's very short. Probably a half a page if you type it up. And it is really focused on kind of describing here's who I am. And so it may take on, if you've already got a career and you're really focused on kind of continuing in that, I might say, Well, I'm an HR executive, and I want to do...with a background in X, Y, or Z. But if I'm trying to make a change from what I've been doing to doing something else, I need to start talking about what are the skill sets that I bring forward. I'll share a story. I worked with a young woman who is a cognitive psychologist, and she had spent her early career teaching. And she was teaching and actually had a job in a business school where she was teaching statistics and some research kind of things, methodology. And she really wanted out of that. And so the question was, Well, how do you start to think about how do you tell your story? And who are you telling that story to? After crafting that 250 words, she had a story that said, Here's who I am professionally, how she defined herself. That's kind of the first paragraph. The second paragraph of that story is, Here's what I'm known for. And that might my ability to work effectively with others. I collaborate with others. I'm known for my my critical thinking skills or my problem solving skills, whatever it might be. Those are all skills anybody in any field might have. But how do you articulate those to describe, Here's what I do. And then the third paragraph of that is really, What am I like to add as an employee? You know, that I work hard, I'm a great team member, or I'm a leader, or I'm a manager, or whatever the situation might be. How do I get along with and work with other people? And then the last short paragraph is, I'm interested in exploring opportunities in, in her case, it was in Minneapolis here, it was the medical technology field. And so that she kind of narrowed in and said, I want to look at jobs in medical technology, which is where she ended up and landed.

Jesse Butts: 30:22

I want to make sure that, you know, for the listeners, that I have this clarified. So rather than going for, Okay, I have my values and all this self discovery, let's look at job titles. It's in between then, it's finding the story, or sorry, crafting your story. And from there, it might not be that finding a certain job title is important to you. You might not be like, Oh, this career option really sounds fascinating. It might be this industry, this type of institution, this ability to be able to work from home permanently. So are you, and I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but am I getting that right? Should we be a little less focused on the job that we might find on LinkedIn versus these other factors that you've just mentioned?

Paul Erdahl: 31:22

Yeah. And you're asking great questions. And what I really...it's all about the story. And then it's all about talking to people. And I know there's tons of jobs out there. And I just, you know, as I'm in the news this week, a third of people under 40 years old are looking at new career opportunities. Just saw that in the Washington Post. And there, there's a lot of churn out there in terms of careers and talent right now. The thing where it starts is that story is your guide. Doesn't mean I know exactly what job I want. But it's my way of saying, Here's the space I want to play in. And here's what I can bring to that space to add value. And that's what's important to me. Now, the steps in this, just to kind of put this all in context is...so you've done the self discovery, now you've been able to articulate your story, and you've been able to get that in 250 words or less. The next part of this process is really the networking that needs to happen. That cognitive psychologist I mentioned to you was quite an introvert, and one of her first questions to me was, I'm not going to have to network, am I? And my response was, Yes, you need to learn how to network, and learning how to network is absolutely critical. Because I think there is a statistic, 65% of jobs don't come from just applying online, but rather through your connections, through meeting people, getting in front of people, finding out that if I tell my story to my neighbor, my neighbor knows somebody else that I should talk to, that be exactly the right person. And I share with people that networking, the goal of networking is not necessarily to get a job. The goal of networking is to expand your network. And so that people know who you are, they know what matters to you, they know what you want to do. And because, I think Arnold Palmer once said, The more I practice, the luckier I get. And at some point, you're looking for those luck opportunities where you will bump into the situation where you will find the job.

Jesse Butts: 33:28

You brought up something that is so divergent from a lot of...maybe it's not even advice, but just the M.O. that we have. You think, Oh, my job sucks, I need to look for a new one. So that means I need to update my resume and I need to spend every night looking for and applying for jobs. You're saying that is the wrong way to go about it. You need to do the self discovery, you need to come up with your story. And then you need to network. That the going online and finding jobs, that is farther down the road, if at all, because that networking might actually lead to the job.

Paul Erdahl: 34:09

Yeah, I'm hoping that it will. In most situations, that's how people will find jobs. And in fact, in this day and age, if you're just applying online, there may not even be a person at the other end of the system looking at your resume. Resumes these days go into an applicant tracking system. And what happens is, you're up against sort of the logic of the system that's looking at if-then equations on things. And yes, you've got to have all your right keywords in there and you've got to have those kinds of things. But if, especially if, you're looking to make a transition from one sort of area of your career into something new, chances are you're not going to be the square peg they're looking to put in a square hole. They're going to be looking for somebody who has the background who's done this before. Who has experience doing this. And if we can find somebody like that, we're gonna put them in. And your resume may not even get seen by anybody if nobody calls attention to it. So my encouragement to people is you want, if there's a job or you hear about something, I encourage you to try to network your way in to talk to somebody about it before you even apply. So that you can you can say, have somebody say, Okay, I know who you are. Or even if it's something, Jesse, if you applied for a job at a company, and I happen to know, maybe I know one person there, I can at least drop a note to that person and say, Hi, I just want to let you know that Jesse is a good...I've known Jesse for years, I've seen him, I've worked with him, he is somebody that deserves your attention in the selection process. All I can do, and if you're not networking with the person who's actually hiring for the job, is to ask somebody to bring attention to your application or your interest in the role.

Jesse Butts: 36:09

And I think there's something, there's a lot of important things here. One thing is we see on the news so much about, or maybe just the the news that I'm reading, it's probably not on the front page. But over the last year in particular, companies are making big strides, some making real progress, some doing lip service, to DEI, which is Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. So things like, you know, this should theoretically curb employers for looking for people that fit their cognitive biases. That, This job requires...because people who have done well in this job have this degree, or they have this many years of experience, or all of these things. In theory, we should see that eroding. But obviously, there's reality. And rather than waiting out for those applicant tracking systems to be perfected, and for the human resources departments, and even more so the hiring managers, to understand the flaws in some of these approaches, we need to take that step now, or else we'll be waiting for a long time.

Paul Erdahl: 37:27

Right. And that's it. At the end of the day, this is all about interpersonal dynamics. It's all about connecting with people, it's all about making sure that people know about you and understand your story. So if you are coming from a non-traditional background, you have to be able to let somebody know why you're the right person for that job. Because you have the interest, because you have the skills, because you can learn new things quickly and readily. Those are all areas that are critically important for somebody who's on the other end, a hiring manager. First of all, the vast majority of hiring managers don't do a lot of hiring. It's not something that they're doing every day unless they're in a high turnover kind of business of some sort. But this is something they do occasionally. So you've got an HR person who's bringing people in, and all of a sudden, they have three or four people they're interviewing. It's a process, and you have to stand out. And you have to be able to talk about why you're the right person for the job. Even though you may not have the ideal background for the position. I think I shared with you Jesse, in an earlier conversation, but when I got my...when I left the hospital setting that I was working in...so I started working in a hospital here in Minneapolis. And I did do some work within that group in their HR group and function. But my next job was working for what is now US Bank. So I went from a hospital, traditional healthcare environment into banking, which I knew nothing about. And I was fortunate that the woman who hired me, the one who is my boss, somebody I still keep in touch with today, she saw something in me. And a conversation that we had triggered her to be thinking about, You can bring different perspectives to the table. You can bring new ideas, you can think differently than the other people who all went to the same school and got the same degree and got the same training or certification. Now I've got somebody who's coming in to bring some different ways of looking at things. She valued that and she brought me in, and that really took my career for the next 20 years on a completely different direction. And it was because of that connection with her that that was able to happen. And so dumb luck. I don't know what it was, how we got connected on things, but that was the opportunity that really changed the course of my career. And so you got to bump into those somehow.

Jesse Butts: 40:07

It's, and to put this in a business parlance, how do you scale dumb luck? It's an interesting question. But seriously, if we could go back to networking...

Paul Erdahl: 40:19

Yeah.

Jesse Butts: 40:20

...mechanics for a bit. You know, we all have this perception of, and I don't want to spend too much time on that, because there's so much, there's so many resources out there with with a quick Google search...But we have this idea of networking being this sleaz mixer at the airport Ramada Inn, you know, with a bunch of insurance salespeople or...no, no disrespect to insurance salespeople, you provide a great service. But how do we actually start networking? What do we do? I mean, does it have to be this seemingly awful thing that we have built up in our heads?

Paul Erdahl: 41:00

Well, and I've certainly I've had those meetings at the Ramada Inn. And I know what those can be like. I think that the way, the way I kind of tell people is...and again, I see networking as part of an exploratory process. If you show up and you say, Hi, I'm looking for a job doing X, Y, or Z, most people will give you a dumb stare and say, Well, I don't have a job doing that. So I can't help you. And so that's the wrong approach. The approach that I really encourage people to think about is, this is a learning experience. I'm trying to network with people who are in the areas that I might be interested. Maybe they're in areas I'm not interested in, it just kind of confirms that. But I need to approach those as, first of all, it's my meeting. I called it. If I got somebody, I found them on LinkedIn, or somebody introduced me, it's my meeting. I need to show up, I need to have an agenda, I need to know, I want to share with you really briefly, here's who I am, here's where I'm at, I'm at a career transition, I'm exploring opportunities. And Jesse, I'm interested in careers that might allow me to leverage my writing skills and doing different types of things. I know this is something that you've done, I'd love to, if you're okay, I have a few questions I want to ask you about that. And then I have a few questions. How did you...What was your first job? How did you get into this? How did you make that transition? Different kinds of things. So it becomes an opportunity for me to learn from you. And then it's mostly me asking a few questions of people. And I also keep it short. There's a wonderful book, by the way, and it is the bible for networking in my mind, and it's written by a couple people who have worked in the search firm kind of business, Marcia Ballanger and Nathan Perez. And the title of the book is The 20-Minute Networking Meeting. And this book is a how-to meeting and how-to guide for having networking meetings. And if you go out onto Amazon, or your local bookstore, wherever it is, they actually have different editions. They have one for executives who are in transition, they have one for graduates, new graduates who are in transition, I think they even have one for veterans who are in transition, trying to leverage their skills. And it is a how-to step-by-step, down to spend the first two or three minutes doing this in follow through. And with the target being, this is a 20 to 30 minute meeting, this is not an hour long meeting. You've got to respect other people's time. What is it you want to get out of it? What is your ask? And essentially, most of the time, the ask at the end of one of these meetings are twofold. One is, Who else should I be talking to? So Jesse, who else do you know, or might recommend that you think I might talk to you to learn more and go deeper into this? Or I've looked you up on LinkedIn, I see you know somebody over at another company that I'm interested in. Would you be willing to make an introduction for me? It's leveraging the network to expand your network. The other part of it is, one of the things that they highly recommend in the book is there's, how do you kind of...if people are willing to kind of pay it forward, how do you pay back? So Jesse, what can I do for you? Is there anything that I can do to help you? Is there something that we've talked about that you might be interested in, maybe I referenced an article I can share with you, maybe it's somebody I know that you'd like to meet? I'd be happy to do anything to kind of pay it back to you in terms of how can I help be a resource for you? All of that is outlined in that book. I highly encourage people to buy it, probably 20 bucks or so online. I don't even know. But it's a great resource. And it is a how-to book for networking.

Jesse Butts: 44:40

Yeah. And I'll be sure to include some information on that in the show notes. How do you find those people? I mean, are you going on LinkedIn and searching for those companies and trying to find people who look like they have jobs you might like? Are you sending an email out to the world, sharing your story and that you're looking for people to talk to who might be in these fields? What is that? I'm not sure if it's quite the first step. But what does that early step look like in terms of mechanics?

Paul Erdahl: 45:13

It's sort of like building a pyramid. Right at the bottom, you're kind of reaching out to almost anybody. And if you've got friends, you've got family, people through social circles, one sort or another. Maybe there's people, you said, Wow, I haven't followed up with them in a long time. Maybe that's a chance to start. And those may be a little bit more than networking, I realize. But if you can leverage part of those meetings, for networking purposes, to say, I'm trying to learn more about this. And, Who do you know in this environment? Do you know anybody who does these kinds of things? And is there anybody you might suggest? And I certainly know having years ago, having gone through this process myself, sometimes you meet people that are really of no help whatsoever. But then, you know, it's the time...I remember I was busy, had a whole bunch of meetings, and I was pulling up at a Starbucks here in Minneapolis. I'm literally sitting in the car, trying to remember who it was I was even going to go in and meet with, right? Couldn't remember this woman's name. So I'm looking her up on my phone, finally find it, I walk in, I find her...She was one of the most help, to my surprise, one of the most helpful people I'd ever met. And I didn't know her. But I think the discovery is most people are happy to try to help if they can, and happy to help provide information. People like to talk about their own careers, if their careers are relevant. And as long as you can engage in the dialogue and the discussion to kind of dig deeper and ask questions, it's an opportunity for you to continue to move forward in terms of expanding things, and the people you know.

Jesse Butts: 46:51

I've had similar experience as well, where I think so many of us assume that it's such a burden that we're asking people, or annoyance. We all have been there, we've all needed to find a job, we've all needed to get out of a job. We get that networking is how you do that. So I completely agree. When someone asks for a little bit of my time because they're interested in something I do, or I know somebody, those are some of the things that I'll bend over backwards to find a time to meet. I personally just enjoy it. But I know how that one introduction can lead to a whole new career, because it's happened to me. And I think, those of us who've been in that situation, very earnestly want to pay that forward.

Paul Erdahl: 47:38

Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more Jesse. And just a follow up, I mentioned it's kind of like building a pyramid. But typically, what happens is you start the networking process is, you'll get more and more focused as you learn more and you start talking to people. And you start to zoom in, which is really the next part of this whole process, is figuring out Well, what, and again, what's my marketing strategy here? Right? And what are the areas that I want to really kind of zoom in on. And just to kind of give you some...if you think about this, if you're creating a matrix on a piece of paper, Do I want to work in a big business? Do I want to work in a small business? Do I want to work in a nonprofit? Do I want to work in an academic environment of some sort? Do I want to work on my own? Do I want to work for a consulting firm? What does that all look like? And then it starts to move towards sort of, What product or service do I want to be associated with? I've shared with many people, I mean, this is also about sort of coming out of that self discovery process. There's a different type of person who wants to go work at the Ritz Carlton than wants to go and work at IKEA. And it's a different kind of customer service. It's a different kind of interaction. I worked at a company here in Minneapolis, Medtronic, which is medical technology company. I walked into Medtronic, and it was like coming home to a place I'd never been before. It was really that kind of experience where I loved it. I loved the people I was with, I loved the work that they were doing, I loved the products they were selling. All those kinds of things, in contrast to having worked at another organization prior to Medtronic, where it was an agricultural firm. And I couldn't stand it. All due respect to those in agricultural fields. I just got bored silly sitting in meetings talking about, you know, soy beans and molasses and other agricultural products. And I should have learned. I did find my ninth grade career interest inventory, and the very lowest score on my entire interest inventory was agriculture. And that was something, was an Aha Moment for me that it's important to be in the right place, doing the right things. I may have been doing the right HR kind of skills and things, but it was not in an environment that was aligned with me. So I think it's that marketing strategy becomes a, Okay, let me narrow down the field I want to work in. I want to work in retail. Is that target? Is it Best Buy? Is it Nordstroms? Is it, you know, what type of an organization is that? Or I want to work in technology. Is it Apple? Is it Google? Is it Verizon telephones? What is it? And so how do I start to narrow that down, because that's the process. Now one of the things, if you haven't already gathered, this is not end to end...this is not a quick process. And with most of the executives and leaders and people that I've worked with, who are giving this sort of their full attention, this can be easily six months to a 12 month kind of process, to kind of go through the self discovery, to begin to think about how I want to frame myself, to begin to think about those networking contacts I want to leverage, to think about how do I narrow my marketing channels in terms of what kind of organizations do I want to focus on, and then you get to the end where you're actually going in and trying to break in and interview and connect with people.

Jesse Butts: 51:03

Yeah, and that's something...we've gone over a ton of useful, great information here. We've really gotten a great sense of self discovery, we've gotten incredible insights into how to craft our story, and how to think about what are those company sizes, those sectors, industry sectors, and we now have networks. So let's say that we've gone through that, and we had a great networking experience, and it led to an interview. So we're in the interview, How do you recommend that people in this situation talk about, or maybe not talk about, that academic experience, especially if they don't have other more, quote unquote, relevant experience? How do you suggest listeners handle those interviews? If the interviewer, the hiring manager, does start grilling you about, How does this PhD relate? Or, what have you done since workwise? Since undergrad? Things like that?

Paul Erdahl: 52:06

Yeah, I think the key answer is you need to be honest with people. Right? So it's not like I can make up a career I haven't had. But I think that the challenge is you just described as, Well, why is your background relevant to me?

Jesse Butts: 52:20

Exactly.

Paul Erdahl: 52:21

If you take the time and you're working on your story, Why is it relevant to you? What what were the skills and the abilities and things that you you bring to the table that will make you a valuable asset to whatever the job is that you're applying for? Now, maybe these are a few kind of tactical things just to think about. It's important to realize, if, depending on what your job title was, you're probably, if you're making a career switch from academia, or into a new kind of career, you're probably going to start as an individual contributor. Unless you've had management experience, which would be a huge asset, to kind of think about, Well, I've managed people, I know how to get work done through others, I know how to make those things happen. If you're coming in, what you really need to sell is a concept that's out there, and you can Google this, around learning agility. And I think even today, when I work on succession planning in organizations, one of the things we look at is, we certainly look at past performance, what kinds of things that people done, how have they done, what has there been their level of performance and success? But the other element we look at as we think about people is, What potential do they have to step up to the next level role in an organization? And similarly, if you're coming in with a unique background into a role, you really have to sell your potential, because you're really most likely stepping in a job you've never done before. The question is, are you agile enough? Are you capable enough? Are you dedicated enough to learn new ways of thinking, new ways of doing things? And have you demonstrated that in the past, likely you have, if you've gone from one situation to another someplace, you've taken on a role or responsibility, you've done volunteer work, doing something, you've led a committee, you've been involved as a volunteer someplace, whatever it might be. How have you demonstrated your ability to continually learn and step into situations that are new and different? And how can you...that's your opportunity, rather, for you to really convince somebody is, My background and experience is relevant because it's based on continual learning and continual growth. And that's what I'm going to do here. I can come in, I may not know the specifics of this job, but I'm pretty sure that in the next three to six months, I can probably learn 99% of what I need to know to do this job. And with that, I bring unique background, unique perspectives, different ways of thinking than people out of more traditional paths might have.

Jesse Butts: 55:02

So I just want to really emphasize that point. That what you say learn is something you will absolutely have to learn. And you might not get a lot of time to do it on the job. That might be something that needs to be done outside of working hours, initially, at least. But I think that's just a reality that we need to accept when we're really shooting for something that we can't walk in day one and nail.

Paul Erdahl: 55:31

Absolutely. And I think, Jesse, one of the things we haven't touched on is, there are some jobs that require certain levels of education or training. If you're going to try to apply for a job as a finance person, you better have some background in finance, you better know and understand accounting principles, and you better know and understand kind of the basics and fundamentals around how all of that is done. Now, you can probably learn that through online courses and different types of things. But you're going to have to be able to talk to that. In another situation, if you're applying for an HR job, what are kind of the...do your research, do your homework, find out what are the core elements of HR jobs. Hopefully by this time, you've networked with a lot of HR people, and you've talked to them to understand what it is that they do. And are they involved in compensation and benefits? Are they involved in in employee relations work? Are they involved in talent development work? What types of things are out there? So you can at least speak to kind of that area, and then come on in and learn how you're going to do that. Likewise, I'll keep going with the HR one. I mean, there's an association out there called SHRM, Society for HR Management, I think, which is one that anybody, I think, could join. And they offer training and various certifications and things in HR. I don't think it requires any particular background prior to being involved in that. But that, that might be a route, if you're really committed to doing something like that. I'm guessing there are similar things, if you wanted to go into it, if you wanted to go into finance, if you wanted to go into other professional careers along those lines. So that's important. I mean, in some ways, in other jobs, of course, if you want to be a doctor, you want to be a lawyer, you want to be some other types of jobs, a nurse or something, you obviously have to go back and get the appropriate training.

Jesse Butts: 57:26

Yeah, I want to bring up too that, if you're a listener who feels like you're in the camp of, I really just want something better for nine to five so that I can do my passion outside of work and on weekends, and the thought of having to learn these skills and do all this to lead up to a job, it sounds too much. Obviously, Paul and I don't have the answer for you, that's an individual assessment. One way I like to think about this is, well, maybe the six months to a year that you spend learning the skill and finding the job, will that enable you to spend more time on your passion? Versus if you continued where you are right now, it's five years later, which path has allowed you to do more , consistently isn't quite the right word, but five years from now, which approach to work has allowed you to focus more on your passion in the long run?

Paul Erdahl: 58:30

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think, just to share, I've got a very close friend who is a musician. He and his wife are both musicians. And as you might imagine, that has been a tough road, especially the last year or two. And he does teaching, and I think they both teach. But that is not...It's not as lucrative as they want it to be. And their performance schedule has certainly been cut back. So in terms of being involved in orchestras and different things, it just hasn't been happening as much. So I know he's been working at a Starbucks. And he's been, I don't know what his particular role is there. But I know he does that. I believe he enjoys it. I think he's good at it. But that is not sort of his heart and soul is being a barista or a manager at a Starbucks. So that is where you, you know, you create this sort of portfolio career where you have these different parts in terms of, I'm able to do some things that I'm doing while I'm doing other things. I have another writer friend, he has done most of his work helping people write their dissertations, and just learning the style around dissertations and how do you help people that need those writing skills from him. I've also connected, by the way, through my coaching work that I'm doing with a C suite executive who's a bad writer, and have connected with another writer to potentially be a coach. A writing coach for a senior executive. And so you start to realize where do these things kind of fit in there. There are niches for some of these. If you're a history major, I'm not sure that French history is where that's going to fit, but there might be a place, some place, or there might be a connection through international organizations where they need somebody need somebody who's bilingual, somebody who speaks French, somebody who has a background and knowledge about French culture, there are certainly other kinds of areas. So I think that's where you have to think holistically. And I'll be honest with you, I think, especially if there are people who are coming out of careers in academia, they tend to be very, very narrow, kind of focused, in terms of how they think about things. Now, I probably angering a few people here. But if your focus has been, I'm a professor of psychology, or math, or history, or whatever it might be, it's about, How do I start to think about the administrative aspects of the college or university? How do I start to think about the broader kind of perspectives of things? People need to be connecting dots at a much wider range than saying, I'm just gonna stay in my lane. You've got to get out of your lane and start to think about, What do I bring to other areas? What can I bring as part of that value proposition where I can create value and make a difference in different types of spaces? And I think most people will be surprised to discover there's opportunities out there.

Jesse Butts: 1:01:34

Yeah, the port portfolio career is an interesting concept. I have never heard a term for that. And one thing I just want to clarify, the question I posed was a bit leading. I didn't mean it to be. I mean, for example, if you have a passion that has a limited shelf life, and I'm thinking, for example, if you're a ballet dancer, and it's the question of, Do I spend a year now focusing on this? It might that answer could very well be absolutely not. I need to keep my prime dancing years as free for dancing as possible. And utmost respect for that. So I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't trying to stop anybody in those type of situations by any means.

Paul Erdahl: 1:02:14

Right. I couldn't agree more. And I think that that's key. You're, of course, bringing up some of the most challenging, unique jobs out there, Jesse. So...

Jesse Butts: 1:02:23

We don't call it The Work Seminar for nothing here.

Paul Erdahl: 1:02:25

Yeah. So you know, I just want to...and kind of my overall perspective is it does take some discovery, it does kind of take peeling back the onion a little bit to find out, Where is that other space that I can play in? And if you can play in the one that you're in, and you really love it, stay there. Enjoy it as long as you possibly can. But when that time comes, and when you need to start thinking about different kinds of things, be adaptable. Be thinking about, How can I can I make that kind of a shift? When I went out on my own, now seven years ago, I had one vision of what I was...kind of the services and what was the consulting space I wanted to play in. And when I look at what I'm doing today, it's nothing related to what I thought I was going to be doing even seven years ago. So it is that continual learning process. It's that openness to new experiences, and new ideas, and openness to thinking out of the box and thinking more broadly, in terms of How, what can I do with this knowledge, these skills, these interests, these values that I have?

Jesse Butts: 1:03:31

Yeah, and I think that's an important point in the sense that what I land as a job after this, let's call it six months of work, doesn't have to be and might not, and very likely will not be, the lifelong work. What I thought was really important maybe five years after undergrad for work, I found immensely boring 10 years after undergrad.

Paul Erdahl: 1:03:59

Exactly.

Jesse Butts: 1:04:00

And I've also had the experience too where I've thought taking on more responsibility would be fulfilling. And some of it absolutely was, but some of that I absolutely had to roll back. It just wasn't right for me. This has been great, Paul. We've gone over so much information. For people, we'll have things in the show notes. If someone is interested in chatting with you or possibly working with you, what is the best way for them to contact you?

Paul Erdahl: 1:04:26

Well, I would point people toward my website, my organization, my firm that I run is called Global Talent Strategies. And it's out at www.GlobalTalentStrategies.com. And that has all my contact information out there as well as additional information about some of the areas that I focus on.

Jesse Butts: 1:04:45

Great. Well, thank you for joining us, Paul. We appreciate it.

Paul Erdahl: 1:04:48

Thank you, Jesse. This has been great, and I wish everybody who's listening, I hope you can find that path forward that works for you.

Jesse Butts: 1:04:59

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Work Seminar. If you like what you've heard, please take a minute to rate the show on your favorite podcast app. Know someone who'd be a great Work Seminar guest? Or have a suggestion or two for the show? You can reach me at Jesse@TheWorkSeminar.com, or@TheWorkSeminar on social. And special thanks, as always, to Jon Camp for the music and Isabel Patino for the cover art and design. Until next time, never cease from exploration.