The Work Seminar

Ep. 22: Heather Dileepan - MA in Writing & Publishing Turned Conversion Copywriter

Jesse Butts Season 2 Episode 7

Boredom at her job, coupled with aspirations to become the next Maxwell Perkins, inspired Heather to enroll in an MA in writing and publishing program. 

While she spent time in educational publishing during grad school, a move to the West Coast after graduation meant fewer employers in her field of choice — and field of study. 

In short order, Heather landed at Amazon, which serendipitously served as her intro to marketing. She soon discovered that the discipline offered the creative outlet and variety she craved in a career. 

Over the years, Heather’s explored different aspects of marketing and found her niche in web copywriting, the persuasive content that encourages readers to take some form of action. In 2019, she struck out on her own to found HD Copywriting. 

Now Heather imbues her work with the skills she honed in those writing workshops and courses. And she’s revisiting her Perkins ambitions as she regularly chips away at her debut novel. 

Freelancing resources mentioned

Creative Class podcast

Being Freelance podcast 

Copywriting resources mentioned 

The Copywriter Club

Copyhackers and Joanna Weibe

Copy School, a Copyhackers course

Where to find Heather and HD Copywriting

HDcopywriting.com

@HDCopywriter on Instagram

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Jesse Butts:

Hey everyone. Thanks for joining me for another episode. I'm your host, Jesse Butts. Today, I'm chatting with Heather Dileepan, an MA in writing and publishing from Emerson College turned conversion copywriter. Heather and I met in a Slack channel for freelancers and self-employed creatives a couple of years ago. And since then, we've exchanged feedback and shared potential clients with each other. She is now the founder of HD Copywriting, where she applies big picture strategy and a bit of marketing elbow grease to her clients' website projects. Heather, welcome to the show. Delighted to have you on.

Heather Dileepan:

Hey thanks, Jesse. It's great to be here.

Jesse Butts:

So before we chat about how you find your way from studying writing and publishing, which is incidentally the same master's degree that I have, except from DePaul instead of Emerson. So before we get into that, I'm curious if you could tell me, what exactly is conversion copywriting?

Heather Dileepan:

Yeah, absolutely. So I like to think about conversion copywriting as any copy that has the intent to persuade. I like to compare, for example, content marketing versus conversion copywriting. If you think about that lifecycle of the customer journey, the farther up the funnel you get when people are just being introduced to a brand, they're getting authority content that educates and informs. That's sort of that content marketing bucket of copy. And then as they move along that customer journey at the mid and bottom of the sales funnel is where you get more conversion copywriting. So people typically will work in emails, sales launches, website copywriting, which is what I specialize in. Really it's, it's, , mostly to make a sale, but also any act. It could be, you know, signing up for a newsletter. It could be getting onto a call for a sales call. Or it could be actually purchasing product.

Jesse Butts:

Okay. And there were a couple of terms, I just want to make sure that we can define in case any listeners aren't familiar. So you said customer lifecycle journey. You said sales funnel. Can you just break down some of that, some of that marketing vocabulary for us?

Heather Dileepan:

Yeah, sorry, it'd be too marketing jargon-y. I kind of fall into that by default sometimes. But, yeah, the customer journey is just, if you think about a brand or even a person that you follow that sells something, it's really the number of interactions that you have with that brand. So for example, you see a pair of shoes and you think, Oh, those are cool shoes. And then at some other point you see a commercial for those shoes. And so like the more times that you get exposed to that product, or the people behind that product, the more familiar you get. And so we, like, we think about it as a customer journey, being like awareness of the brand or the product. And then the sales funnel is really... I actually think of it as a funnel, which is, you know, at the top it's wider. And that's where people are, especially online, are Googling terms. You're researching something that you want to buy or something that you need to fill a gap. I don't know. It could be anything. And as you grow in awareness of what's out there and who's selling that item that you need, or that change that you're seeking, then that's when that funnel sort of gets more narrow. And then when you think about the very bottom of that funnel, it's, OK, I've made a decision. I want this person to teach me something. Or I want this product that will fill the need in my life that I'm searching for.

Jesse Butts:

So, so with that funnel, it starts out very broad. And, you know, there might not be some people who are interested in the product or service. And then the people who keep going through this, like what you described as the customer journey, there's going to be inevitably some drop-off. So then it just gets more and more concentrated in those people who are more and more in need of, or likely to purchase, whatever it is.

Heather Dileepan:

Yeah, that's exactly right. For example, I was just reading something about like, the decision to buy an alarm clock and what, what factors went into buying that alarm clock. We're all seeking different factors and we have a lot of... there's a lot of competition. You can use your smart watch or your phone. So it's really matching the person's needs and what's going on in their life with the benefits and that your alarm clock can offer that person. I think in a, in a less salesy term, it's about really lining up those two opportunities and presenting that just right fit to the just right person.

Jesse Butts:

I'm curious, with your, your master's degree. So, is copywriting something that you studied in your program? What exactly was that, the focus of that writing and publishing program?

Heather Dileepan:

Yeah, it's a great question. It's it's not. And I think that my graduate studies were both very similar and very different to where I ended up today. My program was writing within the writing literature and publishing department at Emerson. I chose it because it was very broad and I could sort of create my own pathway, which I loved. So, you know, at its core, it was like learning the fundamentals of book publishing, which was everything from marketing to design, to like the nuts and bolts of a P&L. And then it was also on the other end of the spectrum, like very heavily creative, so I was interacting with writers, taking writing courses and, studying literature and poetry, which are more of my passions. So, they weren't definitely not a one-to-one, but I definitely use the skills that I learned, like those fundamentals in my graduate program today in so many ways. Like on both ends of that spectrum.

Jesse Butts:

So the publishing courses, plus the writing workshops. That type of arrangement?

Heather Dileepan:

Yep, absolutely. Yeah. So I think for copywriting in particular... I'm a website copywriter. So some of those fundamentals like design, for example, are really instrumental for me today because it gave me an appreciation for the aesthetics of a page and not just the copy. And, of course, as a business owner, having an idea of how to, you know, do my own spreadsheets... math is not my forte. I'm a writer through and through... is very important. But I think the fundamentals of writing and fiction writing are really probably the most beneficial to what I do now.

Jesse Butts:

So going back a little, why did you decide to go to grad school? What were, what were you thinking? What made you want to go beyond what you studied in undergrad?

Heather Dileepan:

Yeah, it's funny because when I graduated from college, I remember thinking like, That's it. No more academics for me. Like, I'm out. And I quickly jumped into the workforce. I was working in textbook publishing at the time, and I think I had just was growing restless. Once you get into that corporate nine to five place, I think you start to see the benefits of academia and learning and being up in your head and, you know, esoteric stuff. I was feeling restless and kind of unsure about what I wanted to do next. And I actually started out thinking about doing an English master's program, but I couldn't really justify that without doing the full master's and PhD track. And also my employer at the time had like an education tuition credit program employees. So I was able to go back to school for pretty cheap, which was obviously a huge incentive for me at the time. So I feel like my final decision was sort of part restlessness and part an attempt to be practical. And, and get some, you know, business acumen while also geeking out in an academic setting. So I, I was a little unusual in that I was working full time when I went back to school. I did it at night, which I would only recommend doing when you're under the age of 25. And it took me a little longer than most of my peers to get through my program.

Jesse Butts:

What was the gap years wise between wrapping up your bachelor's and starting your masters?

Heather Dileepan:

Yeah, I think it was just about three years. I moved across country after I graduated from the University of Washington. So I moved to Boston, primarily to be close to publishing and then jumped into my, my job. And I think I had moved one time, kind of a lateral move in my role when I started my program.

Jesse Butts:

So as you were going through the program, and obviously you're, and you're still working in textbook publishing, correct? So what were you feeling at the end of that program? What did you think would be in your future?

Heather Dileepan:

It was an interesting time in my life, personally, because I had decided to move home, back to Seattle. So that presented some challenges. And, you know, honestly, I think that post-graduate time for me was the most tumultuous professionally, because I just felt pretty lost. And I'm sure a lot of liberal art, master's, majors can relate or empathize with that feeling of like, What to do now with my liberal arts degree? And I found myself back on the West Coast where publishing isn't really as predominant as it is on the East Coast. So I had tried to get some jobs when I moved and I, you know, it was just really hard. There are some like really small mom and pop publishers, but otherwise that was it in the Seattle area. Yeah, it was definitely a tough time for me of kinda trial and error of what comes next.

Jesse Butts:

Did you envision like publisher by day, writer by night type of lifestyle as you were graduating? Or were you pretty much just like, I'm not sure what's next. I just know that I need to do this?

Heather Dileepan:

Yeah, that's funny. I think I had this really romantic view of publishing when I started. And I should have known better because I was in publishing at the time, but I really had this like Maxwell Perkins, like Ernest Hemingway editor writer thing in my head of like, I'm going to be this editor who changes the face of, you know, forms these books and like helps to create the next great fiction. And of course, publishing is a business. And in this day it's gone through a lot of changes and a lot growing pains as an industry. And there's lots of good in publishing, but it, I think it was sort of like my expectations didn't really match my, my dreams of what it would be like. So, certainly some boredom, but also I think the reality of what I got was so much different than what I was hoping for. And that was just a bit of a disappointment as I ended that program a feeling of like a midlife let down, of like, Ugh, now what do I do? You know, like now that I'm here. Jesse Butts: And you like in your twenties? Yeah, right, right. Mid, Late twenties, let down. Professional let down.

Jesse Butts:

Yeah. Yeah, I I'm, I'm a little nostalgic. I haven't heard, or thought of Maxwell Perkins in probably ten years and I, I was kind of in that...I didn't aspire to that, but those were kind of the, the writers and editors that I admired too.

Heather Dileepan:

Mmm.

Jesse Butts:

So you're back in Seattle looking for work. What did you end up doing after you relocated after the program?

Heather Dileepan:

Yeah, I temped for awhile. I did some editing roles. I did some office admin roles. And I landed eventually at Amazon in a contract role. And I ended up staying there for over four years. That was really my introduction to marketing. I feel like I got super lucky ending up there because it's a very fast paced and at times stressful work environment, but I learned so much. And I think I reconnected with my dreams again. Like I, I started to see that marketing was actually an area where I could flourish and be super creative. But it also felt highly practical because it, I could, I could see that end goal, right. It connected to something tangible. And that was always, I think the tension for me is like, how do I, how do I make a career doing something that I love that can still support me, right? And support my life. So. I started out on the beauty team doing just everything. At the time it was a lot of labeling color. So you have a new lipstick and it has 25 different shades. And every one of those needs to be like, hand-coded, at least it did at the time into the system at Amazon so that people could purchase the right one and like browse between them. So I started out doing a lot of that and then slowly moved into site merchandising, which is really helping vendors on the Amazon platform sell. So through banner ads and email marketing and, and kind of what I'm doing today, which I didn't really know at the time.

Jesse Butts:

When you said reconnecting with your dreams, was that dream to do something, I mean, I hate to be crass, but creative yet profitable? Or what did that mean to you?

Heather Dileepan:

Actually having a, like supporting myself financially and doing something creative. Yes for sure.

Jesse Butts:

So as you, especially when you were doing the temp and contract roles before really getting full-time into Amazon, were you writing on evenings and weekends, or where did that kind of fit in? I mean, creative writing.

Heather Dileepan:

Yeah, I wasn't. Writing for me has always been such a, a tough one. Like I, I've gone, and I know a, a few writers who felt this way or creative people where there's sort of two schools of thought. One is that you have a day job that's sort of boring and doesn't require a lot of brain, brain work so that you can focus on your, your, your stuff. Like your passions in your off time. And then the other school of thought being like, Find that creative energy and tap into it at work so that you can put your, you know, everything into that. And I think I kind of fell into that category where I was always putting all of myself into my work. And I think my, my writing kind of suffered because of that. So that's actually something that I still struggle with, especially now that I'm a writer by trade, which I absolutely love. I would say probably the only drawback is that my fiction writing suffers because I put so much brainwork into my day job.

Jesse Butts:

So you're at Amazon and really liking what you're doing and learning quite a bit. You've kind of, put fiction on the, on the back burner because you're in this camp of finding something in your day that you can really use your mind, your creativity. What kind of roles did you have throughout that period, beyond the ones that you just mentioned?

Heather Dileepan:

After I was in beauty, I actually moved back into books. I was in the book team for about two and a half years working with Penguin Publishing, which I think is now part of Random House. And that was really fun. I actually did get to do some writing as part of that. So I would write book reviews. And if you Google me, you can still find a couple of them on there. Some of them are pretty bad. So I would write some of the on-page descriptions for the book and I was really heavily into email marketing at the time. So I managed all of the book email campaigns for Penguin. And then I also did more of category stuff. So launching seasonal programs like our summer reading lists and holiday books, of course, which is major at Amazon and really any e-commerce shop. And really managing like the on-page strategy of that. And then email component, the campaign components, and then the data and reporting of those efforts. So I did that for a couple of years, and then I moved into the food group and did kind of more content strategy, I guess, for food and beverage. So again, doing like holiday and seasonal events for that category.

Jesse Butts:

As you move through these things, were you raising your hand, looking for opportunities?

Heather Dileepan:

I think the best part about working at Amazon is that you can move every year if you want. And it's not a slight at all. It's, it's encouraged that people move around. I love that because I'm somebody who tends to get a little bored as we've discussed. This is a theme in my life. And so I love the opportunity to try different roles and see how other categories were operating. I did get promoted within Amazon, but it's just such a unique structure as a business that they do it that way. It's definitely the hardest and most that I've ever worked in my life. I think for me, I had my boys, I have twin boys. I had them, you know, in 2014. And after that, I, I knew that I wanted to go back to work, but I, I wasn't going to go back to Amazon because that lifestyle, it just, my priorities had shifted at that point. I think it forced me to see that you need to have balance in your work and your life. And so I've definitely love my time at Amazon, but I know I made the right decision for me to move on.

Jesse Butts:

When you did decide to reenter the workforce, was that when you started your business? Or were there some other employers before then?

Heather Dileepan:

Yeah. So after I had my kiddos, I started a new role pretty soon after that at a agency, a marketing agency. It was a really good on paper role. I had a team, I was a manager for the first time and I thought that that was like, you know, when you're checking off boxes of your career, like that was like the, I made it, or, I've arrived moment for me. And I found that I was actually quite miserable in that role. And I think that there were a couple of things. One is I realized about myself that I am an individual contributor at heart. I, as we've talked about, I love the creativity of work and doing the strategy. I like to roll up my sleeves and kind of get in there and do the work. I didn't really like delegating it. And I found that I was a bit probably annoying for my direct reports in that I wanted to have too much of a hand in what they were doing. And the other thing is that, you know, once you get to that point, you're really in meetings a lot. And you're subject to other types of things at work like office politics. And, you know, it's a totally different work environment than, than the individual contributor gigs. So, I was there for a few years and again, you know, every job that you have in life will shape you and inform, I think give you a better sense of, of what is best for you as a, as an individual. But at the end of that time is when I was ready to go out on my own. And I had been dreaming about starting my own business for years. I finally got that opportunity because my family, you know, made some changes and we actually relocated out of Seattle. So, it opened me up to, to that chance to, try my hand at entrepreneurship.

Jesse Butts:

Did that experience reinforce that desire to, to serve clients versus working for a company?

Heather Dileepan:

Yeah, that's an interesting question. I think it definitely gave me a different sense of what's possible. And, you know, you, you definitely see the pros and cons of that approach of being a service provider because you're at the mercy of the people, the clients that you're serving. But you also have, I think a lot of room for experimentation in that model as well. And I think it's , it's easier to be innovative and to test and learn because you're always trying to push the envelope on what works... because that, because it better serves your clients. So yeah, I think so. And it really did help me see the content world more as well. And it certainly informed what I did when I went out on my own as well.

Jesse Butts:

So when you went out on your own. I mean, you've had experience in publishing. You had a number of roles at Amazon. You worked at an agency, I mean, with multiple clients. You managed people. You have all of these experiences and all of these skills. Where did you decide to start? I mean, assuming it was at all different than what you're doing now, but how did you narrow down where you wanted to, to focus?

Heather Dileepan:

Yeah. I mean, it all came back to this tension of wanting to write more. It's like, that's really it. I just was feeling that itch. I had been doing more fiction writing in my spare time. I had, but you know, I had little kids, I have twins, and they were like two or three and just babies. They needed a lot and working full time and trying to write fiction on the side. And I was feeling burnt out about that. I wanted more space to, to pursue what being a writer as a career would look like and just focusing on that. So, when I started, I thought that content marketing was where I should be. That's really what...like I was on the, you know, internal side of that, content marketing process when I was at the last job I had. So I started out just doing blog writing. And I didn't really know for a little while that copywriting existed. Or what it meant. And then once I discovered that it was actually just kind of marketing writing, which is what I had been doing, I pretty quickly jumped into that and focused more on that.

Jesse Butts:

And just as a little refresher from earlier. So content marketing is more educational, and copywriting is more persuasive?

Heather Dileepan:

Yes, exactly.

Jesse Butts:

So , how long ago did you start your business?

Heather Dileepan:

Yeah, it's been just under three years now.

Jesse Butts:

And over those three years, obviously you've mentioned really liking to, to write and to be an individual contributor. But are there any other aspects that you find really enjoyable about your work?

Heather Dileepan:

Mmm, definitely the freedom to create the work life that suits me best. I think when I left the, the corporate world, I was feeling like it was pretty rigid and kind of strictly defined by this nine to five, in-person, highly social, which I'm not as social. And so I, I always kind of felt like it wasn't an exact fit for me. I think today, probably that's a little different. But for me, it's absolutely having balance between my life and my work. Having way more creative freedom and freedom in general to pick clients and projects that light me up. And pass along opportunities that don't suit me to other people. I find that just really rewarding.

Jesse Butts:

Were you able to achieve that life-work balance and that... the, the ability to choose the projects, and the clients you want to work.... were you able to do that starting day one? Or did you, you know, another cliche, kind of have to pay some dues and, and build up your business before you could do that?

Heather Dileepan:

Yeah. I mean, there, there's certainly a lot of business development that needs to happen. And you know, you don't know what you don't know. So I had to kind of get introduced to copywriting. I went through some copywriting training just to be more specialized in my craft. And that does take time. Probably within the last six months to a year is where I've discovered that website copy is really where, where I should be. And of course, before I got there, I had to try every other type of copy too to see like, you know, does this suit me? And do I want to do this? And really a process of elimination is the only way to go. I'm sure some people, you know, don't need to go through that, but I, I definitely did. And I was happier for it. I personally think it's better to wait to niche until you've, until you've experimented a little bit and tried some things to make sure that that you're in the right spot.

Jesse Butts:

Are any other areas that you see a relationship between what you'd studied in grad school and that grad school experience and copywriting and running your own business now?

Heather Dileepan:

Yeah, I think a liberal arts degree, in general, teaches you abstract thinking and critical thinking and problem solving. And those are essential skills. I mean, I know that I'm biased, but those are essential skills in, in any career, in any work place. So, of course that's fundamental. But also I think storytelling and connecting with readers. Today, I think that's really, it resonates with me because at its heart is like, I've always been just a big fiction fanatic. I love fiction because you can, you jump into a world, you connect with this person that doesn't even exist, but you sometimes feel as though they're a close friend. And I think that, you know, maybe, maybe I'm pushing the envelope a little bit, but I do think that copywriting requires a person to do some of that work. You know, you have to really be thoughtful about your reader and the message that you're shaping. And you use storytelling and some of those elements of storytelling every day in copy.

Jesse Butts:

So I know this just from a previous discussion. We haven't brought it up yet. But you actually have a second master's degree, correct?

Heather Dileepan:

I do. I do. Well, it's almost done. I think I was short a few credits. Um, yeah. Yeah. So between my graduate, first graduate school, my writing and publishing degree and finding marketing, I thought that I wanted to be a teacher. I tutored kids and I worked at like a literary mag magazine at a high school, which was awesome. But I decided to go back to school because it was really the only way to be in the classroom. So I did that for a couple of years to become an English teacher. And that coincided almost exactly with when Washington state was really overwhelmed with teachers. So there was such high demand for, or there was very little demand for teachers at the point that I graduated. So it, it didn't end up panning out. But I spent a year of student teaching in a sixth grade classroom and absolutely loved working with and being part of teaching sixth graders. It was a total blast.

Jesse Butts:

Do you ever yearn to, to return to something like that? Or have you, are you preferring the copywriting, a little fiction writing on the side, lifestyle now?

Heather Dileepan:

I don't think I would ever return to a full-time teaching job. Now that I have kids, I still love being part of the classroom. I think that, you know, little kiddos are just so much fun and especially middle school and high school kids are so interesting and thoughtful and creative. So being with them, and just being in their world is, is a lot of fun, honestly. But being a classroom teacher is super demanding. So I think I made the right move for me. At the time, the thing that I learned about teaching is that it, it was very exciting. But it also really drained me. So I think if I had stayed in that career, it would have been hard for me to manage, especially now that I have, you know, kids myself and a more demanding personal life.

Jesse Butts:

So you've been very clear that, you know, you enjoy copywriting and being on your own. But I'm curious, kind of in the, a passion versus practicality framing. For you personally, do you love what you do? Do you need to love what you do? Or are you more of a, I like this, I can kind of contain it. Where do fall in that spectrum?

Heather Dileepan:

Oh, yeah. I definitely need to love my work. I think my work and creative energy are so intertwined that it's really important to me to connect with how I spend my days. I really don't like feeling as though I'm exerting energy on something that I'm not passionate about. And I'm, I'm very lucky that I've been able to pursue what I have. I mean, it feels like such a first world problem in some ways to, to need to love your work. And of course work is, is work. It's tied to money and financial goals. So it's never, it's not meant to be the most important thing in our life. But when I'm, when I'm putting my all into something, it's important to me that, that it's special to me.

Jesse Butts:

How would you describe your relationship to work now? I mean, you mentioned a big thing was freedom and balance. How large of a role does work play in, in your day to day life.

Heather Dileepan:

Being an entrepreneur can be taxing for sure. There's quite a learning curve there. And developing a business can take a lot of work. So, I think I've reached a pretty good spot now where I have better balance. I think those first couple of years, there were times when I was working on the weekends and not being as present as I wanted to be outside of work. And it's just a matter of checking in with yourself, really, to make sure that your priorities are in line. And to understand that , or remember that work isn't everything, and that there's so much more outside of it, that's, that's special and important too. It can be very challenging to be an entrepreneur. You probably know that too, from your own experiences, but it can also be, rewarding.

Jesse Butts:

What role now or in the future, do you see creative writing playing in your life?

Heather Dileepan:

I'm working on a new novel and that's one thing that I have recently been able to carve out time for myself. So I try to write at least once a week, which is not nearly where I'd like to be, but it's what I can do today. I'll take a couple of hours in on Friday. So probably, you know, in a couple of hours today, cause today is Friday. I'll go and just, um, do, do an hour of creative writing and that's, that's what I'm able to do right now. But I think for me, it's just not losing it altogether. And even if it's just a little bit. Like, even if it's just 10 minutes in the morning of writing out thoughts and not even with a purpose, that to me is progress. You know, as long as I can continue that, I feel good about where I'm at.

Jesse Butts:

Let's say someone is wrapping up grad school, or maybe they're, you know, a few years out. They're just not sure if, you know, pursuing the tenure track or adjuncting or, practicing their discipline is the right move for their work. What, what type of questions do you think somebody in that scenario should be asking themselves if they're seriously considering something outside their field of study.

Heather Dileepan:

Yeah, I think it's important to remember that copywriting is a great example of where people come from any discipline. I've met prior lawyers who make great copywriters and teachers and people come to the field from a lot of different academic backgrounds. So, I do think it's important to remember that your degree has value and that you have value and that advanced level of study prepares you for many things. I also, I guess, would say to question what you need as an individual and what does that professional freedom or ideal state look like for you, so that you can pursue it to the best of your ability. We're fortunate to live in a time where we have some of that. And we, we can have some say over our trajectory in ways that, even, you know, prior generations didn't. So I think for me, it's really been about understanding myself and what I need to be content at work. And also what I need to be, you know, feel whole, a whole person satisfaction, right? Like my personal life and my work life blend and, and understanding what I need from both of those worlds is what has helped me.

Jesse Butts:

Do you ever see yourself wanting a full-time role, or do you feel like self-employment is, you know, obviously, Never say never. But do you feel it's the long-term arrangement that works best for you?

Heather Dileepan:

It's so funny that you asked me that because just this past couple of weeks, I've been looking at what's out there again. A friend of mine who is a copywriter, just took a full-time role. And when he told me I was like, Wow, shock, you know? 40 hours, you're working 40 hours a week? Cause it just feels so different to the self-employed life. But I do think that, that the pandemic has changed the way that people think about work. And I think that's really awesome that corporations are starting to think a little outside the box on, on what a healthy, productive employee looks like. So I wouldn't say never, you know, there's a lot more remote work out there, and short-term gigs and hybrid roles. Those, those types of things are interesting to me. So I always keep an open mind on that.

Jesse Butts:

Do you have any reading or listening, or Ted talks or whatever... any recommendations of things that... For people who are considering a big change that you liked and you would, you would suggest to people?

Heather Dileepan:

Well specific to freelancing, if that's something that people are considering, I found podcasts to be very helpful when I was considering making that jump myself. There's a few that I'd recommend. There's one called Creative Class, which I don't think there are new episodes for. And actually, Jesse, that's where you and I met. That's a great podcast to go back and listen to. Another good one is Being Freelance, which is just, again, stories from freelancers who are trying to create a business and can navigate in that world of self-employment. And then I think if people are interested in copywriting specifically, I'd really recommend the copywriter club, which, again, is just stories from copywriters and how they started and where they're headed and, and tips for, for growing your business and focusing on copy.

Jesse Butts:

And for any listeners who might be really interested, intrigued by copywriting, is there a specific book or course, or some type of training you would recommend?

Heather Dileepan:

Really love Copyhackers for the fundamentals of copywriting. Joanna Wiebe is the queen of copywriting. So she's got so much free resources that you can go look at it. She does a weekly tutorial on copywriting, and she also has a paid course, which I took called Copy School. And that really gave me the fundamentals that I needed to, to feel confident in what I was offering to clients.

Jesse Butts:

This has been great, Heather. If people are, you know, maybe somebody needs a copywriter or they're just a little interested in more about what you do, where, where can they find you?

Heather Dileepan:

Absolutely. You can find me on my website at HDcopywriting.com. Or I usually hang out on Instagram @HDcopywriter.

Jesse Butts:

All right. Well, thank you again for joining me. It was a wonderful conversation.