Ep. 35: Judith Lagrou - M.Ed. in Higher Education Turned Investment Banking Strategist

Jesse Butts: 0:23

Hey everyone. Thanks for joining me for another episode. I'm your host, Jesse Butts. Today, I'm chatting with Judith Lagrou, a master's in higher ed from Harvard turned investment banking strategist. Judith is now an associate at a major Wall Street firm. Judith, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining me.

Judith Lagrou: 0:40

Thank you so much for having me, Jesse.

Jesse Butts: 0:42

Absolutely. So pretty interesting change in career here, but before we chat about how you found your way from higher ed administration to Wall Street, can you tell us just a little bit about what you're doing now? Like what exactly does investment banking strategy involve?

Judith Lagrou: 1:00

Sure. Investment banking strategy for me involves working with bankers, sales people, and traders to get a sense of what investors will be interested in a particular bond issue. So that involves not only knowing the bond really well and the market that it's being sort of sold in, but also knowing the market well.

Jesse Butts: 1:20

I've heard the term bond a million times. I think I kind of 60% know what it is, but could you give us just a very high overview of that for maybe some of us who really have been faking it for a lot of years, thinking what they know bonds are.

Judith Lagrou: 1:34

I am happy to do that. So a bond is essentially when an entity, so it could be a company like Coca-Cola, it could be a state or a city like New York, Chicago, San Francisco, California. They want to get funding, and they don't have the money, for example, to maybe build a new plant or fix a certain toll road. And so a bond is what allows any of these entities to basically get money lent to them by investors. So they go out into the market and they sell these bonds. And in that way they get sort of more liquid money so that they can use for various projects.

Jesse Butts: 2:14

So now that we can all speak intelligently about bonds, thanks to you, I'm curious if we can go back a little. Why did you decide to go to grad school? Like what made you interested in pursuing a degree in the administrative side of higher ed?

Judith Lagrou: 2:28

I ask myself that question quite a bit. But I will say that, There are two answers to that question. There's the, I was working in higher ed and I wanted to learn more about it. That's one answer. And I'd say the second answer was I was young, and I wanted to go to grad school, and I didn't know what to do it in. After undergrad, I really thought my life would take a different path. I thought I was going to move overseas and teach English actually. And when I decided to not do that, , I basically just... I wouldn't say I got cold feet, but I more or less sort of looked around and said, This doesn't feel right. I'm going to try something else. The first thing that came to my mind was to work within higher ed because I was comfortable with it and I, you know, was interested in, in learning. Just... I don't know. I would say I was really interested in being on a college campus for a little bit more time. And so while I was working at my first job, which was at Duke University in North Carolina. I did a lot of work with setting up and not really setting up, but I'd say, maintaining and running the pre-health advising program. So while I was doing that work, I thought more deeply about issues around retention. And in that line of thinking, I thought, Well, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do anything from where I'm sitting here in an administrative job. And so I started to think about what applying to a master's degree program and getting a very good sense of what factors were at play. And what I could do to improve retention rates in my own career would look like.

Jesse Butts: 4:04

Was there a gap between your undergrad and grad school?

Judith Lagrou: 4:08

There was. I worked for two years. And that's when I was at Duke.

Jesse Butts: 4:11

When you were in the program, what kind of classes prepare you to focus on things like retention rates, that you know, you mentioned really piqued your curiosity?

Judith Lagrou: 4:22

That's a great question. And as well as I can remember, I will, I'll give some examples of classes I took. I certainly took classes that had to do with race and education. So I took one class about sort of the Supreme Court, and its various decisions that had to do with school choice, desegregation, anything that involved race in education and the Supreme Court, I took a class on. It was a wonderful class. I also took a course on the economics of higher education. So understanding financial aid, student loans, everything that goes into sort of how tuition is calculated and decided. And then I also took a student development theory course. So that student development theory course really exposed me to the number of different theories that really impact young adults and how their brains develop and how their cognition develops in their college years. So that really helped me understand where students were in terms of their own personal development and how to meet them there as a higher ed professional.

Jesse Butts: 5:26

So as you were getting near the end or at graduation, were you still feeling pretty excited about a career in higher ed? Were you starting to, to second guess a career path?

Judith Lagrou: 5:39

By the time I graduated, I was fully drinking the Kool-Aid. I was certainly very excited about, starting my career in higher ed. I, before I graduated, had a job offer in California, where I eventually went to go work. So I became a community director at Cal State Northridge and had that job offer by the time I graduated. So I knew when I was walking across the stage to get my diploma, that I was continuing that work of encouraging student retention.

Jesse Butts: 6:10

What were you doing in, you know, maybe some of your first jobs right after grad school?

Judith Lagrou: 6:16

Sure. So at Cal State Northridge, I was a community director within, it was sort of the umbrella of student affairs. And then a smaller sort of funnel into sort of student housing and residential life. So as a community director, I lived on campus and primarily my work was working with students who chose to live on campus. But there was an aspect of my work as well that really sort of sought to drive student retention and, and think really critically about how to increase it. So ways in which I did that was being sort of the advisor of the honors college. Ways in which I did that was meeting one on one with students who were on academic probation and really understanding where they were coming from and really allowing my connections within housing and residential life to improve sort of the, the quality of life of those students who were struggling. I also supervised sort of my team of, of resident advisors and planned events with them. So really engendering a spirit of community within the housing, residential life sort of arena was certainly my bread and butter. But it definitely extended out to, as I'd mentioned, sort of the honors college and meeting with students who were sort of on academic probation as well.

Jesse Butts: 7:36

Had you kind of developed what you thought was kind of an ideal job track where you could just keep on getting deeper and deeper into making positive contributions to retention rates? I know that, you know, you've worked for a number of institutions before you made the leap to Wall Street. Just kind of curious about that progression.

Judith Lagrou: 7:55

So I think at Cal State Northridge, although, you know, the job was very, very, I would say character defining for me. Cal State Northridge was the first place where I had training with respect to privilege, social justice, race, everything. I think when people sort of talk about diversity training, it, it can get kind of mired in a lot of, I would say, Ooh, it, it can get kind of complicated. And by complicated I mean, it can be divisive, not in the way that, Oh, by bringing up race we're causing a fight. No, but I think it... sometimes diversity training can come in and say, Well, how do we make the least amount of people upset? And at Cal State Northridge, I really had this experience where I really understood that they were bigger powers at play with respect to retention. So, I don't know. I think that made me a bit jaded to be perfectly frank. So I really kind of felt a little lost at that point. And I decided that I didn't want to sort of work in student affairs anymore. And instead I, I felt the need to really dive more deeply into improving my writing and my communication skills. And so at that point, I was able to land a position at the University of Chicago law school. And that is when I picked up everything and moved to Chicago and worked in development, which was wildly different from the world I had left. At the University of Chicago, I primarily wrote. I was the assistant director of alumni relations and stewardship. So basically that meant that if somebody gave money to the law school , I was the person who was writing reports in which I maybe interviewed a faculty member who had received funding from a certain scholarship, or not scholarship, but from a certain donation that was given. I was, planning Thankathon events with current students where they would write thank you cards to donors. So from that experience it was... it went from student retention to, gosh, I really should think about this more deeply in terms of what that had to do. For me, it was more about, What are ways in which we can, I don't know, think, think differently about the goings on of higher ed. I think for me it was more like a focus on me at that point, but I don't think I ever forgot about retention per se. I think it was more like, What are ways in which we can really think about what it takes for students to be here in the first place. And that, that was a, a really unorthodox turn in my career, I would say.

Jesse Butts: 10:41

In terms of people from your cohort didn't take that path? Or it felt like to you personally, that was like a 180 in kind of ....drive may be might be the right word?

Judith Lagrou: 10:51

You know, looking back, it was a, a really big 180. I think the part of it that I liked the most, the part of my role at the University of Chicago that I liked the most was of course, working with students and really understanding ort of the goings on of a school, like a professional school and understanding how that entity works to expand access to that school. So what are ways in which they really tell the story of what it takes for more students to become lawyers? And what are ways in which I could support that effort? So in my mind, I think it went from retention to expanding access in that move in particular.

Jesse Butts: 11:32

How long were you doing that? And was this kind of nearing a point where you were questioning a career in higher ed in general?

Judith Lagrou: 11:40

Oh, Jesse, I really wish that I was questioning it at that point, but I was really still, I was really still drinking the Kool-Aid at that point. I was at the University of Chicago for a little over two years. And then after that, I took a little bit of a break. And I think now that I look back on it and I'm like, Of course I was burnt out. I think that, like, I sort of had a sense of what I went into higher ed to do. And suddenly I was in, I was at a professional school doing similar work, but perhaps not feeling as in touch with this idea of retention that I maybe started higher ed with. And so at that point, funny enough, I started to study improv. So at the time I was at University of Chicago, I applied to and received a scholarship to teach yoga. And while teaching yoga in Chicago, again, this is my hobby, thinking, Okay, there's a big improv sort of community here. Why don't I try to do improv as a way to improve my yoga teaching? And I started to do improv and it became a way for me to more deeply understand my creative self. And I think that is actually what got me to start thinking about my career a bit differently, Being creative, being innovative was something that perked up to me as, something that perhaps I could think about doing in my own career. I would say after the University of Chicago, that's when I started to think about it. But I continued on in education, eventually landing at Northwestern University, where I worked as the assistant registrar and coordinator of the visiting students program at their medical school. And so similarly I was sort of working within administration again, working with students, working to expand access. The visiting students program was for students from all over the world to come to Northwestern and study sort of an area of medicine that they couldn't study anywhere else, or they felt like Northwestern was a, a leader in. So again, here I was sort of expanding access in higher ed.

Jesse Butts: 13:48

If someone told me that retention or you know, expanding access were really big drivers for them, really important to them, I would think, Oh, you know, registrar's office, that might not be the pinnacle, but that seems like, you know, a great place to be doing that, be learning, before maybe becoming like a vice president of advancement or enrollment or, or something like that. But it sounds like maybe, maybe on paper that, that all sounded great. But perhaps in real life, it, just wasn't, aligning to, to what you were thinking?

Judith Lagrou: 14:23

You're exactly right. And I think that's one thing that I have learned over the years that I think that a position can look one way on paper, but when you're sitting in that, in that seat, it can really manifest quite differently. And I think in the, in my last two roles in higher ed, I, I really saw that I learned it the hard way so to speak. Not to say that I didn't learn something from both of those roles, but I think that as I started to move further away from this original concept of, of student retention, I started to sort of see that perhaps a different industry held what I was truly looking for. And that happened after my time at Northwestern. And it was a really interesting sort of job search period after leaving Northwestern. I was sort of applying to a mix of positions and quite frankly, looking back at that time, this was a circa 2018. Around that time I knew I wanted to be challenged. I, I looked back on my career and I saw that a lot of positions I had, not only was I interested in this concept of sort of working directly with students and working to sort of increase engagement and retention. But I also saw that I was really big on giving myself challenges. So I was often making processes more efficient. I was often really looking at ways in which I could innovate and create and strategize. And so I really just was quite open. Yes, I was thinking about vice president and assistant dean roles at that time, but I came across this listing for a startup in Chicago called Aeropay. And I applied, I interviewed and they wanted to bring somebody in to develop their customer success program. So it was an early stage startup. And while I sort of looked at it like, Wow, what a, what a different sort of shift from all the work I'd been doing. I was very excited about it and I maintained that excitement through the role. The, the reason why I left was that the startup was such an early stage startup. And I sort of needed a little bit more in terms of compensation. But certainly it was an experience that for me jumpstarted my interest in FinTech, my interest in finance and my interest in seeing ways in which I could again, innovate and create on the job. And so that is really what led me to leave higher ed.

Jesse Butts: 16:55

And what exactly is customer success?

Judith Lagrou: 16:58

Sure. So customer success is a really new area of business in which, let's say there's a product that's being sold and there is maybe something technical about that product that perhaps like a client service line or customer service line will answer to or respond. After that problem is being solved where like the relationship between that business and that client is really sort of massaged in a way that sales massages it before the sale, if that makes sense. So it's more like customer retention, to be honest with you.

Jesse Butts: 17:36

We see the thread.

Judith Lagrou: 17:37

Exactly. Definitely a, a fit in terms of understanding motivation, understanding ways in which not so much like a sale can take place, but understanding the reasons for how we assess the health of a relationship and how we can sort of take action to maintain that health or improve it. The position at Aeropay in terms of really building out the customer success program allowed me to delve very deeply into the field. And then the next move I made was to move to a larger company to Morningstar in Chicago, where I did customer success for their products as well. And so, similarly it was becoming... definitely sort of a go-to person for knowledge about a certain product and then sort of utilizing the information I had not so much to do troubleshooting, but to speak to the client about how the relationship is going and ways in which, you know, the company could be a stronger partner to that entity that is purchasing or using their products. So definitely retention a hundred percent.

Jesse Butts: 18:43

As you've, been working in customer success and you've enjoyed the finance, the FinTech world, how did you start making that transition from a customer success role to something on the investment side?

Judith Lagrou: 18:58

I thought that I would be in my role at Morningstar for the rest of my career. So I was quite surprised to make the move that I did into investment banking. Honestly, I was made aware through maybe my network of a program that my bank had through which they were seeking out individuals who had worked in different industries, and who had developed their careers in a different industry to sort of apply for a, a set program in which they would come into the company, be trained, receive their licensing, and sort of go through two rotations to get a sense of what the bank does and their role with like what position would work for them within that bank. So that's how I came into the employer i, I am at now. That I came in through this program and they vetted us like crazy. They certainly put us through many rounds of interviews and had leaders at the company speak to us and get a sense of our, our ability to do the work and, and the cohort that I'm at my company with are the best and brightest. And that's really how I moved into investment banking. I was, you know, I worked quite hard to, to not only, you know, be successful in my own career and my own right with my own transition, but also to present that in a way that made it very clear that the next step for me was to really delve more deeply into finance through getting experience on the revenue generating side of the business.

Jesse Butts: 20:33

The, The company that you did this rotation in, and you got your licenses through, this wasn't Morningstar. This is where you're currently working?

Judith Lagrou: 20:40

That's right.

Jesse Butts: 20:40

Okay. Gotcha. What do you find most enjoyable about being on the investment side now?

Judith Lagrou: 20:48

I would say number one, in higher ed, I, I believe that there is a, in administration generally there is a reticence or reluctance to change. That's what I found across the board. That there would be a process. And if we wanted that process to change, because it was not as efficient or, it was maybe wasted resources or maybe it was a little circuitous, there was resistance. And I think that in, in business and in finance, if there's an idea and you can prove it and you can explain it and you've got the data, you can go with it. And so that's what I really like. I really like the openness to change. I would say secondly, what I really like is the challenge. And this is just what it is that higher ed can sometimes lag behind in terms of technology usage. And so for me, catching up to everything and everyone, sort of in, in this corporate setting was in and of, of itself a challenge, but certainly I'd say the urgency of, of things was something that I got used to, but it was certainly a big change. And I think that for me, it's certainly made me a better professional across the board. Just to know that if there is an issue we're not talking about next academic year, we're talking about today. It's being discussed and we're talking about today. We're hopping on a call to, to think about next steps. So certainly by shortening that timeline, I find the challenge is very much welcome.

Jesse Butts: 22:20

What's the new... or maybe I should say, Is there a new retention, expansion? Is there a new passion or driver that you've found? Or have you taken a different view of the importance of something like that in your work?

Judith Lagrou: 22:38

I would say that the form that retention and, and expansion to access for me takes nowadays is, really thinking about that with respect to the strategic projects that I take on. So who is not included in this conversation that perhaps needs to be included? Who needs to be recognized in a way that maybe they have not been recognized? I would add too that the training I received in diversity and inclusion, personally for me, allows me to really see an environment and understand at least, from my perspective as a Black woman, exactly if they're a good fit or not. And what exactly about that environment, perhaps may be or may not be a good fit. So I think that for me, the retention has actually turned inward. The expansion has turned inward. It has sort of said, Okay, we've worked with students to help them sort of get access to higher ed. What about me? There is sort of like a, a question there too, where I entered a field where you don't see many Black women, you certainly don't see many people of color. And so I think of it too, as understanding that the work maybe has always been internal. That by sort of expanding access to others that I really understood that it was sort of a field in which I could also benefit.

Jesse Butts: 24:02

What do you mean by the work was internal?

Judith Lagrou: 24:05

Sure, sure. I'm happy to explain. Yes, I was working in higher ed. And I think that as sort of somebody who was an administrator, I was doing this work of helping students figure out what was between them and graduating. And how to remove those barriers. And then when I looked at my own career and I saw that I was seeking a challenge that was not there, I really saw that there was an opportunity for me to enter a field that itself needed to be sort of strengthened in the area of expanding access and retaining particularly employees of color and women. And so by entering into that , into that realm and working within finance to be very specific, I really see that the work that I did within retention is looking at me straight in the face. That I am really asking myself questions about, Okay, what is a good fit? What does that mean? And what are things I can do in my own career to ensure that the fit is good? Or to make moves, if that fit is not good?

Jesse Butts: 25:09

Is there anything you learned during your master's program or your time working in higher ed that's helped you in your new career that we haven't talked about already?

Judith Lagrou: 25:17

Yes. In my master's degree program, we took a course, it was basically a general higher education leadership course. And there was an assignment or a project in that course that has stuck with me until this very day. And that assignment slash course was sort of a day in the life of a university president. And so it was that we each received like a packet of emails and letters and memorandum that a university president would get. And then we each would have to basically write a paper, explaining our course of action and the order in which we took each sort of step in that course of action and the justification for that. And so for me, that exercise was very helpful in terms of understanding separate and very competing demands on one's time. It allowed me to really understand sort of politically speaking, there may be things that happen in your career that may not make a ton of sense at the time. But if you take a big step back and sort of see the big picture, it very well could and will often. And then even understanding the power of relationships, understanding that from finding a, a job in and of itself to being successful in that job, to being promoted within that job, a lot of this is very dependent on the relationships that you have. And so for me, that exercise allowed me to really understand on a very deep level, again, the demands on one's time and focus. As well as the importance of relationships in one's career, no matter the industry.

Jesse Butts: 26:58

this point, would you say you love your job? Do you need to love a job? Is a job something that... it's enjoyable, but I have other pursuits? What's your take on that?

Judith Lagrou: 27:10

I would say, Ooh, fit is more important than anything. And you know, my perspective on fit has really evolved through my career in a way that I really love. I used to think, I apply to a job and say, Oh my goodness. I hope they like me. I hope they take me. I hope they hire me. And now, I really look at it as a two way street. And I think that's so critical and so important, to really understand, Is this an, an environment in which, I can thrive? Not that I can just get through, but I really feel at home and that I feel comfortable in that I feel not tolerated, but actively welcomed in a t all levels. And so that's for me getting to know myself very well. What has helped me is, is doing like a life map and understanding the themes in my career and the themes in my life and the things that I've done in my life that, I've lost track of time doing. And really getting all of those items together and seeing the, the similarities and the themes that come out and really seeking places that would allow me to keep doing more of that. Or would allow me to also be a go to person for that skill set perhaps. Someone who can teach or someone who could learn more. So for me to love a job is more about knowing that there will be bad days. But if I feel as if I'm on the right path, generally, that that is the focus. So, yeah, it's like a love, yes? But it's almost like a, I'm afraid to use the word unconditional love. But you know what I'm talking about. Where it's like, a big picture kind of experience where with a job, you sort of say, I am on the right track. And that kind of love. So not like a, a teeny bopper baby puppy love. But a, a marriage kind of love where you're like, I'm doing this. We're in it thick and thin.

Jesse Butts: 29:10

A partnership?

Judith Lagrou: 29:12

Partnership, exactly is what I'm certainly zeroed in on at this point in my career.

Jesse Butts: 29:18

You've mentioned so much great advice. That, that life map and, you learned new skills through improv that helped you discover things, you focused on writing and communications... You know, you've done a lot of things to expand your abilities, your thinking process. I'm curious if you have any other advice for people who are a little stuck, not just in what do I do next, but with the identity portion. I mean, when we go to grad school, a lot of us get our, our identity intertwined with what we're studying. And Instead of, what I do for work is higher ed admin, it's I am a higher ed administrator. Did you have any qualms with, shifting that identity? And, and if so, just kind of, how did you work through those?

Judith Lagrou: 30:07

Yeah, I think that's a good question. We're gonna go there. My number one career advice is to go to therapy. That's it. I really believe that internal introspection, it h as always been the best thing for my career. And, and, and also it's me speaking on behalf of myself. It may not work for everyone. But I will say that it worked for me because it allowed me to understand that by working in higher ed administration, for me, it was kind of a way for me to hide behind the curtain and help other people. While that is certainly a good thing to do if that's something you earnestly want to do. It, for me, became a way of not being awakened to my own identity and my own preferences and my own abilities. That's number one for me is know thy self. That is understanding exactly who you are and what it took for you to get to where you are. In terms of identifying with a career, I think also just knowing that you are not your career. Being very cognizant of the fact that careers can certainly change. And it's okay to change them. If that's something that you want to do.

Jesse Butts: 31:23

And you've talked a lot about fit within institutions. You've worked for Duke, Northwestern, University of Chicago, Morningstar. You're with a, a major Wall Street firm now. Is the prestige of an organization a big factor for you?

Judith Lagrou: 31:40

You know, it used to be. It really did. Oftentimes, yes, the prestige can be nice. I believe that I, I have privilege in that area. That I went to these schools, I went to, you know, Stanford for undergrad and Harvard for grad school. And so it, for me was almost like a driving factor in my own career. And I would often turn around and say, Well, I'm interested in retention and expanding access, particularly to marginalized communities, students of color. But I am sitting here at predominantly white institutions. What does that even mean? And so for me, that is really in the process of like being challenged and questioned because I really believe now that presitigous institutions... They, they do have a lot to give in terms of, of course funding, research and resources. But that's not the only place where innovation is being done and that's not the only place where fit can be found. So for me, it's just been a journey to break that down and dismantle it. And I'm really happy to, to see it. And I'm happy to be on that path now to understanding that perhaps name is not all there is. That in fact that, if you peel back one layer, it's really important to understand who is in that organization. And if those kinds of people are people you want to see every day and work with every day.

Jesse Butts: 33:11

I've talked to a number of guests about this. Some people are really position drive. They want to do X and they're not, they're not as particular about where. Other people are a little bit less concerned about the role they're doing and more like, I'm really passionate about this and I want to make sure I'm aligned with an organization. Or this organization is considered the best and that's really important to me. So I, I know there's a lot of different takes on, on this, and guests had very different opinions too.

Judith Lagrou: 33:41

I can see that. You know, I think that there's certainly a pull here, right? You want to sort of make a lot of impact and you want to sit in a place where there's a lot of resources. You know you're getting the best of everything. You know that people will pay attention when you say you work at blank. On the other hand, right, how do you spread those resources? How do you make them more equitable? I wish I knew the answer to that.

Jesse Butts: 34:05

I think we all do, but yeah.

Judith Lagrou: 34:07

I really do. Yes.

Jesse Butts: 34:09

Yeah. Were there any, any books, any TED talks, any, anything that really helped maybe not influence you, but kind of find your way through the corn maze as you were considering these. Just any recommendations for, for people to check out?

Judith Lagrou: 34:25

Oh, sure. There was a book, I believe it was called What Should I Do With My Life? And it's written by, I believe an author named Po Bronson. I'm not sure, but I believe that that book has an exercise for one to create a life map, which is what I had mentioned a little bit earlier. There is a book also called The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin, which I really love. It basically talks about ways in which we as individuals are motivated. So is that like intrinsic? Are we sort of people who motivate ourselves and are not as concerned with external motivation? Do we just need external motivation? So understanding that aspect has been really helpful for me. I would say too, you know, mindset for me has been really big. I wish I could think of a book that helped me with that mindset, but, I would say, through a journey of leaving higher ed and going into corporate America in any sense I had to be very prepared to hear no a lot. If you hear a no, it doesn't mean never. It means not with me or not right now. So, Morningstar, I believe I applied to work there in December 2018. And I went through the whole process. I interviewed, I had to do a presentation for my interview. And then in maybe January of that year I got a phone call from the HR rep saying that I was not selected for the role and that she didn't think that it was a good fit. Point blank told me, like, I don't think this is a good fit for you. And I took my own advice and I said, that's not a never, I think that's a not with me or not right now. And by sort of March, I had the role at Aeropay. And I was building this customer success program. And I reapplied to Morningstar. And they noticed my application and I got hired. And so sometimes it could be when you're coming out of higher ed, you may need to maybe take on a role that could be helpful to bridge the gap. So, it was tough for me because I had to sort of take on this role that was at a, a smaller startup. And the compensation wasn't what I was used to. But it was a risk I took. And I recognize and understand that not everyone can take that risk. Right. But perhaps maybe taking on a side project. Or even... volunteering as much as you can. I know that's tough to hear because like nobody has time. But ways in which you can in a concrete way prove that you are interested in that new industry. And then have somebody in that industry vouch for you are big pieces of advice that I feel like I've gleaned from books that I can't remember the names of, but certainly they helped me.

Jesse Butts: 37:08

It's excellent, wonderful advice. So I'd like to end, little bit of a hometown pride. I know that you worked in Chicago for a number of years. You're in Wall Street now. What's something that Chicago does better than New York?

Judith Lagrou: 37:21

Pizza. People can come at me. I don't, I don't mind. I'll argue this all day. Pizza. And I would also say um, certainly there's nothing like a summer in Chicago. Perhaps because they were so drastically different from the winters, which are straight misery.

Jesse Butts: 37:38

I, I love ending on that note. Thank you, Judith, for, for joining me, this was really a wonderful conversation.

Judith Lagrou: 37:43

Thank you so much, Jesse, for having me.