Ep. 34: Austin L. Church - MA in English Turned Brand Strategist and Business Coach

Jesse Butts: 0:23

Hey everyone. Thanks for joining me for another episode. I'm your host Jesse Butts. Today, I'm chatting with Austin L. Church, an MA in English from the University of Tennessee-Knoxville turned brand strategist and business coach. Austin is the founder of several companies. He helps bootstrapped founders with their branding and strategy, along with freelancers on growing their businesses. He's also writing a book about pricing and money matters for freelancers. Austin, welcome to the show. It's a treat to have you on.

Austin L. Church: 0:52

Thank you so much for the invitation. I'm delighted to be here.

Jesse Butts: 0:57

So before we talk about how you found your way from English to, to brand strategy and business coaching, can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing now? I mentioned you, you have some, several pursuits. What exactly are you you doing day to day for yourself and for clients?

Austin L. Church: 1:14

I would say I divide my time amongst three primary things. Number one is writing, always writing. You mentioned the book. I do a lot of writing on LinkedIn, a little bit on Twitter. The second thing is consulting. I have a fractional CMO role that I fill, and then I do other projects here and there, mostly branding strategy, some marketing and messaging thrown in. And then the third thing is Freelance Cake. It's a media and education company. I have focus on freelancers, cause I've been one for so long myself. And a lot of the teaching and training revolves around what I call advantages, and those are the beliefs and habits and levers. I, I group them all kind of under that, that term advantages, but, how do you get better results with less effort, especially when life is crazy. My wife and I have three kids. And so any, any little advantage I can get means a lot just in the day to day. Not hustle, not grind, but crush in the day to day crush. If you can help me get better results with less effort, I will love you forever. And so that's what I share. That's what I focus on.

Jesse Butts: 2:34

And, how long have you been solo? I mean, what, whether it's for one or all of those three things, just curious how long you've been working on your own at this point?

Austin L. Church: 2:45

I got pushed forcibly out of the 9 to 5 nest in April 2009. So we're recording this August 2022, I guess that's a little over 13 years at this point, a long time.

Jesse Butts: 2:59

I always like to talk with guests a bit about what they did in grad school, but first why they pursued it. What, in particular for you made you want to go beyond your undergrad?

Austin L. Church: 3:11

So right after I graduated, I ended up teaching high school English for a year. And I thought that would be a good fit. I was teaching four classes of juniors, two classes of freshman. This was at a small, private Christian high school in Nashville, Tennessee, where I grew up. Well, Jesse, I was not three months in that I found my first gray hair. I'm not even joking And I had a little bit of a not crisis, but it was that moment where it was early, early in the morning. And I was like, What's that? And I'm like tightening my neck tie and thinking, Is this really what I want to be doing? I was 23 at the time. And I decided I need to go take the GRE. I need to start applying to grad schools because I, I don't think this is what I want to do long term. I had wonderful high school teachers. I think it's a beautiful calling, but that experience of being unfulfilled, at least in the high school context. Made me reassess that decision. I finished out the year, I applied to 12 schools, I got into one. I was so embarrassed. Right. Because when you start applying, you tell people that you're applying and then people follow up later. They're like, How's it going? And you're like, Not great. I keep on getting these rejection letters. But ultimately I landed in Knoxville, Tennessee, which was the only place that would have me. So, it was, but it ended up being like this providential thing because it was a really good fit for me. I still live in Knoxville, love Knoxville and, yeah, wouldn't have chosen it if there had been other options on the table. So thankfully, there weren't, if that makes sense.

Jesse Butts: 5:08

Yeah. So when you, when you were applying, was it, I really want to study more English? Or I don't know what to do, but I was good at school, so let's go back to that? Versus, applying for other jobs or, you know, looking for some other career options?

Austin L. Church: 5:23

I was that self- branded writer slash poet. That's the only thing I had ever wanted to do consistently. And I thought, well, this is one thing that I could do because I love reading and writing. And I did like teaching. Right. But I just don't think at 23, I was mature enough to balance the tactical work of, I need to create a lesson plan every single day for the better part of 10 months. I need to figure out some better time management. So I was up against that, but also just this, these loves, right. So I, I knew that I was not a very good high school English teacher, but I knew also that I really loved the subject matter. And to some degree I was right about pursuing writing because I still love it. It's still a passion of mine. And so it's like, when, in doubt, what love do you expect to not go away? Pursue that love.

Jesse Butts: 6:34

So were you, studying literature, creative writing, rhetoric and composition? Like what was your area of focus in grad school?

Austin L. Church: 6:42

Definitely creative writing. I entered the program as a fiction writer. I had one or two short stories, I think that were passable enough. I, I know in retrospect that my, my portfolio was really weak. I mean, it would not have been on the academic side. I was a little bit cocky because I had great grades and you know, I had all the extracurriculars and all that crap. But I should have, I should have spent a lot more time writing. I was that kid that spent more time talking about writing than actually writing. And that has flip flopped in my life. Now I spent a lot more time writing than I do talking about it, but, entered as a fiction writer. Like, and again, Looking back I'm like, what was I thinking? The very first workshop that I took was poetry writing and not fiction. Like, Why, why are you gonna enter as a fiction writer and then immediately take poetry classes? So it didn't make sense, but I did write a bunch of poems that year. I did end up actually winning the graduate creative writing contest for a poem I entered and ultimately just changed tracks from fiction to poetry and finished out the degree with a thesis of my poems rather than short stories. Yeah, I can't say that my choices made a whole lot of sense in the order that I made them, but yeah, I guess hindsight is 20-20.

Jesse Butts: 8:14

So Austin, what were you planning on... what did you end up doing after grad school?

Austin L. Church: 8:21

I didn't really have a plan. A lot of my decisions looking back, again, what were you thinking? I, right after grad school, went out west, did a bunch of fishing, goofed off with friends. Came back early fall with no prospects and ended up getting a job through an introduction by a friend at a marketing agency. I had no marketing background. The portfolio I took in was a collection of poems and vignettes and little bits and pieces. I mean, who knows? I still kind of can't believe that that owner offered me the job. He and I have remained in touch all these years. But got a job and suddenly I'm in the marketing world.

Jesse Butts: 9:13

What are you doing in that job? How long are you at it?

Austin L. Church: 9:16

So I was a copywriter and then a social media strategist, which sounds really cool. But the only reason that role fell to me was I was the youngest person on the team. And the only person who had a Facebook profile.

Jesse Butts: 9:30

And this was when, like, like roughly?

Austin L. Church: 9:33

This is October 2008.

Jesse Butts: 9:35

Okay. Facebook's open to the public, but it's still pretty youth oriented at that point.

Austin L. Church: 9:40

Exactly. And so I'm like, I'm like, Wait, you're gonna like position me as a social media strategist when we talk to clients? I don't know anything about, I mean, I'm still figuring it out myself. They're like, Well, you know more than the rest of us. And you'll certainly know more than our clients. I'm like, whatever. And you know, maybe that was a good sort of baptism by fire because it's true about a lot of things where if you were one lesson ahead when you were teaching Romeo and Juliet, you are the expert. If you are one lesson ahead with social media strategy, that makes you the expert.

Jesse Butts: 10:21

Can you tell us just kind of like what the day to day was? And, and what happened after, or leading up to you going out on your own?

Austin L. Church: 10:29

So I wrote a lot. I wrote web content. We would get a client that was building a new website or, you know, updating an old one. And I would write the words that go on the web pages. And I was writing copy. And you can think about the difference between content as being, you know, content is meant to educate or inform or entertain or inspire. Copy is meant to persuade and sell. And believe it or not, creative writing and poetry in particular was a pretty good entree into copywriting because in poetry, we talked about the economy of language. Like, how much cargo is each word carrying? The more you can pack in, the more meaning you can pack in, generally the better the poem is, right? And the same is true of copywriting. Whether it's a headline or a call to action, all the discrete pieces need to carry their weight. Carry their share of the load. So I was writing copy for print ads, for billboards, for radio spots, for television commercials, for email newsletters, for just about everything that you can imagine. And again, Kind of making it up as I went, because I don't know anything. I, I'm, I'm totally green, you know? So half the time I'm signed up by either the principal at the agency or the creative director for a specific project, and then I'm off to the side, Googling things, being like, All right, what does this even mean? Like, what am I even supposed to do? So, that's how I spent my days. Oh, I should also mention being the social media strategist, I was writing a bunch of social content, Facebook posts, tweets, all that kind of thing. So, I got laid off after six months during The Great Recession when the economy tanked. But in that six month period, I, I got a ton of experience. I had to learn all these different mediums or media, all these different formats. Also had to learn that like all of the rules, whether it was a particular style guide, like MLA, everything that I learned about the English language and about writing in grad school got blown up. Like in the first three weeks, because yes, you can end sentences with prepositions. And yes, you can start them with conjunctions. Like all that stuff that I learned. That's like, oh no, no, no. Here are the boundaries we don't cross. It's like in the world of advertising, if it works, do it.

Jesse Butts: 13:23

And I, I can really empathize. I was, , a victim of a Great R ecession layoff as well. So, so we know that you went solo, but what was that process? I mean, did you decide, This is my time to strike it on my own? Or, I'll do the freelance thing until something opens up? What were you thinking at that point?

Austin L. Church: 13:42

I was terrified. I felt like an idiot because I hadn't saved money. I had $486 in my checking account. So I woke up on a Monday, broke with no prospects and terrified because I didn't have this safety net. Yeah, I could have called my parents and asked them for money, but I would've found that really embarrassing. Freelancing was the kind of the only option. One, because I had enough wherewithal, enough perspective to realize if I just lost my job, this type of job is in short supply right now. So I could go out and try to find a job similar to the one I had. But why would my fate there be any different really? So that was the first thing. And then the second thing was, I didn't have lots of expenses. I was, I needed $1,100 a month at the time. So I thought, Okay, I have no idea what I'm doing. The, the, the one thing that happened that Monday, or maybe it was Tuesday, I'd have to go back and look at the email train, my old boss called me. Like the guy who had been my boss three days before. And it was the funniest conversation because he was like, Hey, you probably weren't expecting to hear from me so soon, but we can't actually finish any of the projects you're working on. What is your freelance rate? And I'm sure I was like, Hmm, let me think about that. And then, like I said, Googling on the side, What is a freelance rate? I don't know what we're talking about here. But I knew that they billed out my time at $85 an hour. I just said, How about $40 an hour? Cause I'm thinking at least that leaves a little meat on the bone for him. And he said, Yes. And so my very first freelance client was the agency where I had worked and my first freelance projects were the exact same projects I had been working on before. And so that, I guess did give me something of a cushion. It wasn't great money. In fact, I learned very quickly that the hourly model penalizes speed, efficiency, expertise. The faster you work, the less you make. But I am very thankful that I got a client. And then, , the other thing I did was just start going to entrepeneur events. More or less just telling people I'm available for hire. And I will not be picky. Like I , I wrote so many things. I had so many boring projects, but that's kind of, kind of how it all started after I got laid off.

Jesse Butts: 16:38

When did the evolution from gun for hire, anything anywhere, to consulting with branding and coaching others... not just when did that happen? But what was that transition like? How many, you know, how, how long of a process was that?

Austin L. Church: 17:00

That's a really good question. I mean, you touched on something... There was a big paradigm shift there, right? From feeling like I was an artist adrift in the business world to feeling like an entrepreneur who happened to sell his creativity or creative skills. I think the paradigm shift started to happen fairly early. There were two very specific experiences. One happened within two weeks after I got laid off. A friend of mine, a guy I went to church with, introduced me to another agency owner who he thought might have some work for me. That guy's name is Andrew Gordon. I will eternally be grateful for him. He didn't realize he was mentoring me that day, but that's sort of the, the punchline is that the shift accelerated in me in part because of mentors. People who just knew a lot more than I did, but we had a conversation and he asked me what I charge? And I quoted him the same $40 an hour I had quoted my old boss. When he said, Do you mind if I give you some advice? And, you know, anytime someone asks permission to give you advice, they have the type of maturity that makes the advice that's about to follow really freaking good. Right? Anyway, I am sitting there and he basically said, I would raise your rates to at least $75 an hour effective immediately because you're pretty good. Despite your lack of experience, you've gotten good quickly. And you will not be taken seriously in larger markets like Charlotte and Atlanta and DC. You can compete with those copywriters, skill wise talent wise, but you won't even get the conversation if your price is signal that you're inexperience or you lack confidence or you're maybe even unprofessional because you charge so little, right? And I'm like, like no one had ever said that pricing is branding. That pricing is positioning. Right? Because my reasoning was, Well, if I charge 40 an hour and people are accustomed to paying a lot more, then they'll say, Great, then I'll get twice as much work for the same price. Right? Whereas other people are like, You get what you pay for. So if it's cheap, it's probably not gonna be very good. So mentorship really helped spark that paradigm shift early on. And the second thing, I'll just call pattern matching. And I had no business background, no marketing background before the agency. But that didn't mean I was stupid. It just meant that I was inexperienced. Like I've always been a pretty fast learner. And I'm pretty good at noticing things. And what I noticed early on is that people who ended up being really good clients would communicate with me in a certain way. They would say certain things or they wouldn't say certain things. And, you know, the inverse was true that the people who ended up being very difficult down the road. Well, when we were first starting the first project, they would say things like, Well, if you give me a discount, now I can send you a lot of work in the future.. Or, they would stroke my ego. They'd say, Oh, I can tell that you're really smart. So why don't you.... And, again, when somebody gives you an unqualified compliment, they didn't know me well enough to say some of this stuff. I just began to piece things together. These patterns emerged. And so over time I was able to like become a little bit more sophisticated in how I was running the business. In part, because I got my teeth kicked in. And, you know, you have a painful lesson and ideally you squeeze as much learning as much insight as much wisdom out of that as you can. So as time went on, even though I was pretty lean in the experience and expertise realm, I, I learned through that school of hard knocks, getting my teeth kicked in. And eventually I'm like, Wait, I started about the same time as some other people who were freelancing, either designers or photographers, writers like me. I've been able to grow my income. I've been able to attract higher caliber clients. And they still seem to be struggling with some of the same problems that I solved. Even that sort of contrast, not even that I was like trying to cast myself in a favorable light as much as it's like, Okay, but what did I do differently? You know, after a while you're just connecting the dots. You're like, Oh, maybe I actually have a knack for this, even though for the longest time, I thought, Well, I'm just a poet. Or I'm just a writer. But eventually I woke up and I was like, I, I think I kind of have a knack for this.

Jesse Butts: 22:17

You're doing a lot of writing now, whether it's for your own social media or projects or doing some consulting and you also have Freelance Cake, the business that helps with coaching. How long have you been... is trifurcating a word? But how have you been in this, this lane?

Austin L. Church: 22:37

I, and this is not a good trait, I am chronically overcommitted. And believe it or not, only having three things going on is an improvement. I have always, I first heard a guy named Darren Rowse use this term, I've always struggled with being multi-passionate. He calls it multi-passionate disorder. I've always suffered from multi passionate disorder. I mean even like, what was it? 2011? 2011, I started developing my first iOS app. And then in 2013 I co co-founded and invested in a music tech startup. And then in 2018, I started my own branding and marketing studio. 2018. I also published a children's book and so I've always had too much going on. I turned 40 back in April and I'm like, there there's always been that voice in my head that's like, What's wrong with me? Like, why can't I just pick one thing and just stick with it? Well, there are a number of reasons for that, but being trifurcated is partly just, I, I have a lot of wide ranging interest. And then also I joke that art and commerce in me are these two dragons that are locked in mortal combat. I will always love craft. I will always love the sandbox of words. And I even wrote this one blog post about I was writing and I'm like, do I pick the word dearth? Or do I pick the word shortage? I prefer the word dearth. But more people know the word shortage. Right? So there's the craftsman in me that just wants to be a little bit esoteric, a little bit obscure sometimes. But then there's that more practical side of me that's like, I also need to get paid. And so that's, that's how I would explain being trifurcated is I'm constantly trying to reconcile this ambition to build something and Freelance Cake is that ambition. I want to pay it forward and help a lot of artists build a profitable, sustainable business around the work that doesn't feel like work. Around the work they love the work that brings them joy. You know, and I'd love to have love to scale up my impact using that education company, right? But meanwhile, I've gotta get paid because I support a family of five. And so consulting pays the bills. And even though I do a lot of coaching with Freelance Cake, it still hasn't been enough to entirely replace my consulting income. But then the writing is like, well, that's just my first love. So I always want to be writing. Does the writing feed the other things? Of course, but I know that's probably an unsatisfying answer for anyone who might listen, like, Oh, like you do three things because you haven't figured out what it is you really want to do? And also haven't figured out how to get paid for that? I'm like, Yes. like, haven't gotten, haven't gotten it all figured out yet. Sorry.

Jesse Butts: 26:01

But I think it's really helpful too, to hear that, while you're presenting it, as you haven't figured it out, you have found some things that are, that you love and you're making money with versus a hundred percent doing something you're not that into, but you feel trapped.

Austin L. Church: 26:17

That's right. And there are a number of people who've said this different ways. Tom Bilyeu, I heard him speak at an event. He said, and I'll paraphrase, You're always gonna have problems. So pick the path that has the problems you actually want. That really resonated with me because being a solopreneur brings all sorts of problems. Having a nine to five job brings all sorts of problems. It just comes down to, well, which set of problems does you, does you... which set of problems do you want? Because you're always going to have them.

Jesse Butts: 26:56

What do you find most enjoyable about your work?

Austin L. Church: 27:01

I love it when I'm coaching a consultant or a freelancer or an agency owner, and I get an email like her name is Kelly and she emailed me and she said, I can't believe it. I had talked her through how to raise her prices with her main client. And when it worked and she got a 33% raise just with that one client, just for having the courage to start the conversation, like the excitement and the hope and the confidence that she had, I love that. Because I know what it's like to be broke. I know what it's like to be paralyzed with anxiety because you're like, Where's the money gonna come from? And to be able to come alongside my people and be a source of encouragement and to be salt and light and to, to give them those levers that I've talked about, beliefs, habits, principles, and to point them at those things, which will, will be evergreen and will stand the test of time. I also just love solving problems. So that's the consulting side, right? Like to understand a system, to pull it apart and understand its constituent parts, but then to say, How do we put this back together and make it work? I'm kind of obsessed with business. But I would approach it the same way I might approach like understanding a work of literature, right? More like understanding themes rather than thinking about it like a machine. I, I enjoy serving consulting clients in the same way. How can this brand do a better job at creating meaning and making people's lives better? Or how can this founder, who is really passionate, fully communicate why she got into this in the first place? Right? So I like helping people reconnect with their passion. if I'm honest, , I also like helping people make more money. Because most of the people that I work with, it has nothing to do with buying stuff, and it has everything to do with like all the cool things they want to do with money to make the world a better place. Some of them just need a great car. That's true. But some, like, I just, when I ask, What would you do if you made twice as much? You would not believe how beautiful the answers are. Oh, I would take my grandmother to Japan to visit her sister who she hasn't seen face to face in 20 years. True story. And I'm like, Oh my goodness. We've gotta make that happen. It's paying it forward and it's reconnecting people with their passion and it's solving problems and it's waking people up to the possibilities in their lives.

Jesse Butts: 30:15

I'm curious if there are any other skills that you picked up in grad school that you know, unexpectedly, serendipitously have helped you in your career?

Austin L. Church: 30:25

Yes. I learned how to think. And I still hear from time to time, someone crack a joke about a liberal arts degree or degree in literature. And they're like, How's that working for you? And inevitably, these are people who either chose a profession like accounting or engineering, or it's people who don't see the connection between thinking and communication and business. But I realized that God gave me a good mind and I can bring it into a business concept and see where dysfunction is happening. And in part, I was taught how to think because of a liberal arts undergrad and then in grad school, like literary theory and criticism. Like you want to like stretch your mind and try to figure out, like galvanize what you believe and don't believe, like literary theory and criticism is a great place to do that. Right? And then there's something about going back for another degree that forces you to finish what you start. It's really hard to accomplish much of anything in life if you give up quickly. And I made certain commitments and then I'm like, Well, now there's this sunk cost. I guess I have to finish this degree, even if I don't plan to stay in academia, don't plan to teach. But I'm glad that I finished.

Jesse Butts: 32:06

Do you love your job? How important do you think it is to love one's job?

Austin L. Church: 32:13

I do. And that love is more or less intense based on the day. Generally, I really love what I do and I'm, I feel very fortunate to love what I do. That being said, I think it's deeply personal. I think some people find it easier to compartmentalize their work. It's a way to make a living, and they tolerate some parts of it. Maybe even enjoy some parts of it, maybe dislike other parts of it, but they are a lot more pragmatic than I am. And they're like, It's just work. You work to live, you don't live to work. And I've got a job doing this and it's okay. And I've learned how to be good at it. So I think it is, it really depends on your personality and your demeanor, what you want and expect from your work and whether or not you even believe it's important to be passionate about the way you make a living. Some people, I don't think they really feel the need to combine where they have a lot of intellectual or creative curiosity and how they make money. I'm one of those people that I've finally just reconciled myself to, I need to be creatively and intellectually engaged with the work that I'm doing. If I get bored, I'm not pleasant to be around.

Jesse Butts: 33:36

What role does work play in your life in terms of how much time is devoted to it? How just in general, big of a part of life is work to you?

Austin L. Church: 33:48

It has become less important, but I would say that's due in part because I had an unhealthy attachment to it. My significance was bound up in my work for a long, long time. And if work was going well, I felt great about myself. If work was not going well, I didn't feel great about myself, but the truth is our worth, our significance as human beings never rises and falls with performance in a certain area of life, including work. Now that said, I believe work is an area where we can find so much joy and meaning. But it's like anything else, family, friendship, physical health, intimacy, financial affluence. Like these can be good things, but as soon as you develop an unhealthy attachment, and all of your significance is bound up, like, How am I doing as a dad? Oh, my kids are upset with me right now. And that crushes me. Well, that's unhealthy. So I've had to sort of recalibrate my relationship with work because I just realized this is not healthy. This isn't sustainable. And I need to be okay with Austin, even if my bank accounts or my clients or my various business ventures, don't seem to signify my success.

Jesse Butts: 35:33

What questions do you think someone who is wrapping up grad school, maybe a few years out and they're thinking what they studied might not be the best way for them to make a living. What kind of questions do you think they should be asking themselves as they try to navigate where to go from here?

Austin L. Church: 35:53

Great question, Jesse. One of the first things that comes to mind is like, What do I not get bored with? I already kind of mentioned boredom. Now, to be clear, if you want to develop expertise or mastery in anything, your tolerance of boredom is going to be a competitive advantage. If I can read writing manuals and enjoy it to some degree, well no wonder I need to be a writer. Right? So that's the first thing. It's like, where do I have a higher tolerance for boredom than other people? And then another thing is, What am I doing when I lose track of time? Another thing is really digging deep into what you believe about money. Because if you start a business, and the goal of the business is to make money, if you haven't unpacked your relationship with money and your beliefs about money, you will self sabotage. I've seen it again and again and again, where you were seven years old, and you heard your parents have a conversation about their wealthy friends, and you didn't understand the content of the conversation. But you just drew this association, this correlation between wealth and bad. You don't realize that that impression finds its way into your operating system. And then you carry that into adulthood and it never gets questioned. So I think it's really helpful coming outta grad school to actually understand what your relationship with money is because you need it. Lots and lots of freelancers and artist friends, and musician friends, and just people I've known would tell me that money isn't important to them while having near constant anxiety about it. So there's that part of me, that's like, How's that working for you? So I wish someone had put their arm around me when I was coming out of my English program and, and just said, Hey, Hey buddy, do you know what you believe about money and have you ever examined the, the truth? Like are those beliefs true. Can you find counterexamples? I know that sounds like a weird one, but that's just coming from having coached hundreds of freelancers and I'm like, It comes up again and again and again, and again and again.

Jesse Butts: 38:18

Along your journey, were there any books, TED talks, podcasts, anything like that, that you would recommend as they're considering something new? Not necessarily in the field of copywriting, but just, examining where to go when you're at a crossroads?

Austin L. Church: 38:35

Let's see, there's a book by Parker Palmer called Let Your Life Speak. And that's a pretty good one, just about looking back at patterns in your life that you may not have noticed before. And where might they be pointing you? The second one I'll share is Give and Take by Adam Grant made me realize that as long as I can become really good at recognizing bad actors in business, he calls 'em takers, I can continue to be this sort of person I want to be in business, which is generous and kind and trusting without having to believe that it's a dog eat dog world. And certainly without having to act vicious or ruthless or constantly self-serving. Right, so I thought he did a really good job basically saying, No, like most people believe in fairness and reciprocity and the golden rule. In fact, modern society falls apart if too many people believe otherwise. Maybe the last one is Range, David Epstein. And that one really impacted me because he more or less said, Hey, if you have a lot of interest and you've sampled a lot of different things, it doesn't mean you're broken. It may actually just mean that you're capable of a lot of different things. And some of the people who finally make a choice in their 40s end up being the true innovators in their field. And I was like, Thank you.

Jesse Butts: 40:16

A Well little affirmation. If people want to find a little bit more about you, about Freelance Cake, where, where should they go? Where can they find you?

Austin L. Church: 40:27

I hang out on LinkedIn quite a bit. So Austin L. Church. I'm the only Austin L. Church. I had to use that pretentious middle initial because of all the churches in Austin, Texas, right?

Jesse Butts: 40:40

Not just because you're a writer?

Austin L. Church: 40:42

Yeah, well, it's so funny. It was one of the better choices I made in the early days when I was setting up profiles. I'm like, no one's ever gonna find me. I have to use my middle initial. And it just turns out, Oh, it's probably a good, wise choice for a writer too. I'm on Twitter a little bit. And then obviously FreelanceCake.com. People can find me there.

Jesse Butts: 41:03

Well, this was a pleasure, Austin. Thanks so much for joining me.

Austin L. Church: 41:06

Thank you again for the conversation. I really enjoyed it.