Ep. 21: Jonathan Kranz - MFA in Creative Writing Turned Marketing Writer and Trainer

Jesse Butts: 0:24

Hey everyone. Thanks for joining me for another episode. I'm your host, Jesse Butts. Today, I'm talking with Jonathan Kranz, an MFA in creative writing turned marketing writer and trainer. Jonathan and I met at a marketing conference in 2019. Jonathan is now the principal at Kranz Communications, a business to business content and copywriting firm. And he's also a workshop and training leader for numerous clients. Jonathan, welcome to the show. Delighted to have you on.

Jonathan Kranz: 0:54

Delighted to be here. Ever since you invited me, I've been looking forward to this.

Jesse Butts: 0:58

Excellent. So Jonathan, can we talk a little bit about what you're doing now? What type of projects are you focusing on? What type of clients are you working with?

Jonathan Kranz: 1:09

Well, first of all, in terms of clients, it tends to be mostly a business to business, not so much a B to C. So for everyone to know I'm a marketing copywriter, which means that I write the anonymous stuff that you may find annoying. It could be a commercial interrupt something you watching, less likely that junk mail. But today, most of that work is really web-related just like everything else in marketing has changed through digital. So I would say that the bulk of my work has to do with digital one way or another. Website copy, content that is, you know, stuff that you can download from the web, including eBooks and white papers, scripts for videos, email, email blasts, email campaigns, articles, occasional blog posts... just about anything that a B2B marketer would need to get the word out. My clients tend to fall into these categories, high-tech, healthcare, financial services, business services and higher education. That, that's the core of my business.

Jesse Butts: 2:10

And is any of that work on social media or are you pretty dedicated to web work?

Jonathan Kranz: 2:17

You know, very little of it is directly tied to social media. What typically happens is I'll create content that'll then be supported with a campaign that may or may not be conducted on social media. Very often it'll be more like a banner ads that may appear with a, a social media post, et cetera. What I have found, I know this will be controversial at least in the B2B space, social media is not really a significant player in marketing and sales for B2B. Some will argue differently, but I would say to them, show me the proof. I just don't see it.

Jesse Butts: 2:51

All right. If there is a guest out there that has that proof, I welcome you onto the show. Maybe we could have a, a little, a three-way discussion.

Jonathan Kranz: 2:58

I would love it.

Jesse Butts: 3:00

Uh, so, but, uh, Jonathan, I'm curious, when did you found Kranz Communications?

Jonathan Kranz: 3:04

That was 1996, January of 1996. In August of 95, my first daughter, Rebecca was born. I was working as a paralegal in downtown Boston and one day at a company event, in which the boss invited the family to come over, you know, our families to join us. I remember the boss met my daughter for the first time. She was only like two, three months old at this event. And a boss put his arm around my shoulder, and he says, Jonathan, I love it when my employees either buy a house, get married or have a baby because then I know they're my wage slave forever. And he didn't, he wasn't being mean. He was a good man. But what I recognized in that moment was that, he was absolutely correct. That if I didn't take charge of my life, if I didn't seize it, yeah, then I would be a wage slave. And that was the inspiration for me to find a new direction that ultimately culminated in starting my business in January of 96.

Jesse Butts: 4:06

Great. So if we could go back a little bit to...

Jonathan Kranz: 4:10

Sure.

Jesse Butts: 4:11

...more of your educational background. I'm curious, you know, what, what was the reason you enrolled in grad school? What made you want to go beyond undergrad with your studies?

Jonathan Kranz: 4:21

Well, you know, I graduated from Rutgers with a degree in art. Not art history. But making art. Oil painting, specifically, was my big concentration. And my initial thing was, you know, was going to be a visual artist. And that just didn't work out for any number of reasons. I, I think my original plan was, I'd work whatever job I could find, and then I would paint at nights and weekends. And then what I would find is that the evenings I'd be exhausted because by the time I made the commute home, prepared a meal, I mean, there was like an hour or two, and I was ready to go to bed and get up for the next day. And then the weekends would come and I was so drained that it was just hard to get anything moving. So long story short that didn't, the art itself, didn't go anywhere. And so I spent a number of years wandering around the wilderness thinking, you know, What am I going to do to make a living , much less, you know, have a meaningful career? And it occurred to me, you know, I wasn't a bad writer. A lot of my teachers had complimented me for my writing and I thought, Well, is there something I do with, I could do with that? And at this point, my original intention was totally mercenary. I thought, How can I make money writing? And I thought about technical writing. I didn't know much about it. Commercial writing, didn't know much about it. So I thought I'd go to school. And as I started studying what options would be for a graduate degree in writing, I was highly encouraged to skip any program that concentrated in tech writing and go directly to the MFA. The thinking was that that would give, you know, the greatest flexibility for any kind of writing I might want to do. Plus, the MFA is regarded as a terminal degree, which means it can qualify me to teach at a institution of higher learning, a college or university. So I said, What the hell? And in preparation for the MFA, I got into fiction writing. I started writing on my own, and then that's what I concentrated on when I got my MFA. And I finished that, I think around early 95.

Jesse Butts: 6:18

Did the dream of painting on the nights and weekends turn into a dream of writing fiction on the nights and weekends, once you secured a better job?

Jonathan Kranz: 6:28

Well, here's the thing. What happened was I got my, finished my MFA, and as I was working as a paralegal, as I said earlier, and then I had that epiphany that I described to you. And my initial thought was, If I could work for myself, I could work on my fiction for a couple of hours in the morning and then dedicate myself to, to the business um, throughout the remainder of the day. And, and then what really happened, and this is also kind of an interesting story is that, you know, a couple of years in, and I realized that there were two things. One is that it was harder and harder for me to get myself motivated to write fiction in the mornings. And a lot of that was, you know, when you're thinking about an impending deadline ahead, my thought was, You know, I'd rather just do the client work and get this done. And get the money. And I also realized, too, that, to really build the business would take a complete commitment. So I gave myself permission to quit writing fiction and to just focus on building the business. I now, at this point, I have two children, a first home, a mortgage, and all the things that go with that, that I'm sure everyone who's listening to this, or many of the people listening to this will understand or appreciate. Ironically, as it turns out, years later, leaping ahead to 2009, I got the inspiration to write a novel. And after a six year torturous process of writing, looking for an agent, looking for a publisher, I did indeed get that novel published in 2015.

Jesse Butts: 7:54

Oh, congratulations. So you're at this point where, you finished grad school and you had, as you mentioned... I'm not sure how to phrase it, if it was career ambitions, but you went into it fairly practically. You liked the flexibility the degree would offer you.

Jonathan Kranz: 8:13

Yes. And at that point to my mind had changed. I thought, yes, I'm going to do this. I'm going to become a fiction writer. So I had turned. My initial motivation was, figure out some kind of commercial application. Then I got into fiction, got the degree, and then I changed yet again. Back and forth, back and forth kind of quality. And I hope that's also useful to your, your audience. That not everything is linear. There can be a cyclical or iterative quality to our journeys. In fact, most of the time that, that's the way they actually really do evolve.

Jesse Butts: 8:44

So you were a paralegal and then you left that in, I believe you said 96 to start your own firm. I, I personally would feel so intimidated going from a paralegal to a solo marketer. What was that transition like?

Jonathan Kranz: 9:03

I'd like to say that I went into it, you know, with just complete 100% confidence and, you know, just damn the torpedoes. But the truth was I recognized that there was risk here. I had never done anything like this and no one in my family had ever done anything like this. So, it was risky. I recognize that because even if the wage work I was doing wasn't that wasn't particularly rewarding or even renumerative, it was at least stable and reliable, you know, you do the work and every two weeks there's a check, right? Or, or was something similar to that. And I remember even, my, again, my, my baby Becca she's, you know, wakes up in the middle night and I get up to, to walk her, you know, to get her back to sleep. And I'm walking up and down the hallway, just doing the math in my head and thinking, Am I crazy? Is this the right thing to do? Am I nuts? Here I am. I'm a husband. I'm a father. Does this make sense? Is this self-indulgent? And this went on for weeks. But I held to my initial deal with myself and that deal was, Look, I would find three clients, three pieces of business, and then I would commit fully full-time. And let me just explain, there was a little bit of a transition. So I, toward the end of 95, as I was still a paralegal, I managed to pick up some pieces of work. I did my first freelance work. In fact, it was for a, the very first commercial writing I did was for a video catalog, a little digest size video catalog, where my job was literally to write little descriptions of the movies that people would order from the catalog. This is pre-internet. And then after that, I managed to pick up some work with a former studio mate of mine, Glen Wish, who left art school to found his own graphic design studio and business. And he gave me a break and had gave me some assignments and included a catalog called Sound Exchange by Warner Bros., which sold kind of a pop culture related merchandise, kind of music related merchandise. So in addition to CDs and DVDs, it would have things like, you know, t-shirts and wall hangings and all kinds of, you know, gimcrack and crapola, you know, you name it. And then I did a lot of, also for him, I did stuff with Publishers Clearing House. So I had that. And then I said, I need two other things. And I got two other gigs, and I said, Okay. I gave my resignation notice and I dived in.

Jesse Butts: 11:19

Wow. So it sounds like a critical part of that... I'm not sure if you want to call it networking or just simply stating your intentions, but I mean, you, you built before you launched, right.

Jonathan Kranz: 11:37

Yes a bit. And the other thing to consider is that at first, my first inclination was to continue being a low wage slave by finding another wage slave thing, but in writing. And I started doing all the things, a job seeker is supposed to do. You know, those informational interviews you conduct with people, et cetera. And it was during the course of that, those interviews that I had a kind of insight. So the year is 1995, and my brother Christopher was generous enough to buy me my first real computer. This was a Pentium 75 woo-hoo. At the time, that was a big freaking deal. Right. And that would have been, you know, one, a version of Windows 3, I think at that time. But one day I'm sitting in my room with this computer that, you know, probably between games of Doom and, and I realize, hold it. The modern computer is an office in a box. It's a place to create your work. It's a place to store your work. It's a place to communicate, you know, via fax or email. You could do your books on that computer. In fact, everything that you would need from an employer is in the computer. As long as you're willing, in this case, I'm willing, to go out and hunt. That is, to go out and get the business itself. When I realized the technology was available to enable the independence, it also occurred to me that, You know what? Starting out my own would be no more difficult than trying to find a job with a regular employer. Because either way I had to build a portfolio. And I said, you know, if I'm going to develop a portfolio of sample work, why not just do that for myself?

Jesse Butts: 13:23

Well, now I'm, I'm waxing nostalgic slightly for my Pentium 166 Packard Bell. It, it wasn't too far after yours. So, I want to talk a bit about building the business. After you, you got some clients and you put the work into it. You know, I hate to embarrass you, but I mean, you're a fairly well-established writer. You know, you're involved in Content Marketing World. You're at a lot of conferences, you've worked with pretty prestigious clients. What were those early days like once you, you really started getting full time, to becoming a pretty well-known voice in your field.

Jonathan Kranz: 14:04

So I'm going to tell you the truth. That first year I made a whopping $18,000, more or less. 18,000.

Jesse Butts: 14:13

Like in 1996?

Jonathan Kranz: 14:14

Yes, in 1996.

Jesse Butts: 14:17

Okay.

Jonathan Kranz: 14:17

And I spent that year aggressively networking. At that time, again, still, this is very early internet. The internet existed, but it really wasn't a useful tool yet. You have to remember very early. I don't even know... the first browser may have come out by this time, but it was still a novelty. It was not what it is today, which is just like the glue for our entire society. At that time it was still novelty. So, any networking was meant face-to-face. And I would actually, I subscribed to a paper, the Boston Business Journal. Every town, every city, I think has one of these. There's a Milwaukee Business Journal. New York. Whatever. So Boston Business Journal, the reason I subscribed most of all was because it would have an events calendar. And so there are things like the American Marketing Association, the Business Marketing Association, the New England Direct Marketing Association, the New England Society for Healthcare Communicators. The Society of Independent Consultants. New England Editorial Society. I mean one group after another. So I would say I was doing events like two or three a week to network, network and network. And, it panned out. And here's, here's the thing about it. If I took the attitude one by one, you know, go to an event and then that night evaluate, was it worth it? Most of the time we would've said, No. I mean, you get a few business cards, you follow up with, you know, some correspondence. And most of the time nothing would come out of it. But you do it for the few times when it hits, because that's it, that's your traction. That's where you start. And through that networking, I was able to develop some contacts that did lead to work. And, and that goes to part two. Well, how do you grow a business? Well, one opportunity came to itself was from a local hospital. Local hospital had a PR department and they needed articles. They just contracted with a local paper where they would do an article a week allegedly from one of their providers, one of the doctors. So my job was to ghost write. The payment for these was ridiculous. It was like a buck 25, a buck 50 an article. I mean, I mean 150, of course, but still really low. But at the time I was thrilled because again, you know, I needed the money and it also gave me a toehold. So what I did next is what's important. Is that once I did one or two articles, I said, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to start marking myself as a healthcare writer. And what I did was I joined a whole bunch of organizations that were about healthcare marketing, largely just to get their mailing lists. And I literally built a database through WordPerfect. Because WordPerfect had that capability. We could develop a base directly from the program for mail merge, and I compiled the list, you know, from multiple groups of, you know, hundreds of persons long. And I would do bulk mailings. You know, myself with just a regular, then my Pentium 75, that Hewlett-Packard, you know, laser jet printer. And a bunch of envelopes and just a lot of licking of stamps, et cetera. And, you know, the response rates were of course low, but because they naturally are ,right. You know, 3% was considered a very good, but imagine that means if you do a hundred pieces of mail, maybe three responses. So the truth was I do more than a hundred, maybe 300, 350. Maybe I get four responses. But of those four, you should convert one. That's all I needed. That's all I needed. And I would just keep doing it. So it was a pattern of that. I would just keep doing that. And over time the portfolio just grew. I had more and more healthcare, but I began to diversify. I made an important contact at an agency that no longer exists called CPS Direct Mail outfit. And that was phenomenal. I worked with a brilliant creative director named Evan Stone. Wonderful man. Learned the ropes from him about the essentials of direct marketing copywriting. And from there, I was able to build on that experience. Again, with the similar process of developing mailing lists, doing those mailings, continuing the networking and gradually little bit by little bit, building up a business. In fact, so much so that the second year of my business, I more than tripled what I made the first year. So the second year I made around 66,000 I think. 97. Now in today's dollars that...yeah, exactly 1997. That, that ain't hay. That's not bad. And for me, it was the first time in my professional career that I was really successful. Because after college ... you know, I'd worked a number of crummy jobs. Like so many, you know, the kind of... I did picture framing. I waited tables, you know, all kinds of different stuff. But this was it. I was like, Holy shit. I've made this happen. I'm, it's for real now. I'm a success, you know, I'm, I'm actually making it happen. And that's really the story, you know. I think the other thing I want to say about this is not only the sense of, you know, get that initial traction, then expand, exploit it to expand it and get more business. But also I would say to people, Expect that career to change over time. For example, I did a lot of healthcare writing back then. Today, not so much. I do it occasionally, but not the way I used to do it. Another thing that's changed is, I used to do a lot of junk mail. A lot of direct mail packages. Loved doing that. You'd have to write the envelope, you'd have to, you know, with a teaser, then you'd have the letter, the push note, the brochure. The, a lift note I mean. Everything. And it was fun to create those packages, but then as you, as you know, in the early 2000s, with the rise of the internet, direct mail response rates just bottomed out. I mean, I watched it literally year over year. So I'd see 1999 people saying, Whoa, 3% is great. 2000, if you can get 2%. 2001, one and a half percent. By 2002, it was like, if you could get 0.75% response, you're doing great. But, that isn't great. The business was collapsing and even my own direct mail efforts that I just described were failing. I would send out 700 letters and get nothing. Zip. Silence. And that was really scary. And, and again, I morphed my career. Obviously, I turned a more digital turn. The webpage, my website became more important. But also it became more important to write for the web at that, at that point. It became about the web pages plus content that people could access via the web. And it's been like that ever since.

Jesse Butts: 20:33

Sending the letters, I mean, people call it outbound marketing or push marketing. But then in the early 2000s, you know, there is that switch of, Why should I wait for someone to contact me? I'll just go online and find what I need. And that, you know, became inbound marketing or pull marketing. So that's when you adapted, like you were talking about earlier, to create content that when people were looking for someone like you, that's how they find you versus you putting more effort into finding people.

Jonathan Kranz: 21:05

Absolutely Jesse, that's a stone-cold truth. So for me now marketing becomes less pushing stuff out and hoping people respond to really create, for my own purposes, creating content. And that kind of content could be, for instance, the stuff on my blog, it could be ... I had an e-newsletter newsletter for awhile. It could be the newsletter. It could also be writing articles that would appear either in print. Like I. Eventually, I did articles for the Boston Business Journal, for example. And then increasingly online publications. Like I, I did a lot of stuff for Marketing P rofs. Did a lot of articles for them, and that was incredibly productive. And of course, speaking, public speaking. So a little hint for people. If you can do speaking, if that's something that doesn't scare you, do it, because most of your competitors won't. So you get an instant advantage right there. So I'd say that my apperance at Content Marketing World, speaking and public speaking is a large part of what draws the leads in today.

Jesse Butts: 22:05

I do really want to talk about speaking and workshops, leading seminars, that type of thing. But before we get into that, there's something I'm curious about. You've also spent a lot of time talking about networking and pounding the pavement. As you were going through this, were you frustrated that you weren't spending all your time working on client work? Or did you kind of get this little entrepreneurial itch of, you know, making deals and, and building a business?

Jonathan Kranz: 22:33

Well, you brought up an essential thing. If you go out on your own, as a consultant or a service provider, you instantly have two jobs. One job is whatever it is you do. For instance, I write copy for clients. But then there's the second job. And that job is marketing my own business, promoting Jonathan Kranz. And I think that that's the difference between people who do well freelancing and those who don't is... I think that the, the ones who understand that they have that second job of self promotion are going to, are going to be much more likely to make it. When I see freelancers fail, it typically follows a model like this... You find someone who's working for a company, finds that the clients love him or her. And maybe one of the clients even makes a pass, saying, Hey, if you leave this place, you know, we got plenty of work for you, et cetera. And so you, you leave, intending to coast on the contacts you already made when you were previously a full-time employee. And that typically works maybe two to three years. And then what happens is, is that there's a life cycle to any client engagement. You don't get clients forever. Maybe it only lasts one project. Maybe it's a series of projects. Maybe you get a couple of years. But it's rare to get more than a few years out of a client relationship. Client business changes. They take a new path. Another agency comes in. There's so many reasons why they may change their talent. So what that means is if you're not continually refilling that funnel with prospects, eventually you're going to run out of clients and run out of business. So it's really critical, critical for anyone who wants to go independent to consider that independence means having to invest in your own self promotion.

Jesse Butts: 24:19

And speaking of self promotion, just like you mentioned earlier, public speaking. Can you talk a little bit about maybe... I don't know if it's specifically that first opportunity or some of those early ones and how you, you started that and what you saw from, from those experiences?

Jonathan Kranz: 24:37

Yes, I can. So, as, as I said earlier, I attend a lot of networking events. And at many of these events, they follow a similar format. You know, there's like a cocktail hour for, you know, and schmoozing for about an hour, hour and a half. Then maybe there's a meal and a speaker, Q&A, and everyone goes home. And at first I was really intimidated. I thought to be a speaker, you have to just know so much about your topic. You, you have to be an expert in order to get up in front of all these people, right. And then after attending a number of these events and realizing that the level of quality was often marginal. Every once in a while you'd hit, you, you'd find a fantastic speaker and you'd be so grateful. You'd learn so much. You'd be inspired. You'd get practical information you could use. But unfortunately, that was kind of the exception. Most of the time, it was pretty mediocre. And I recognized a couple of things. One, the bar is low. So good news everyone who is thinking about speaking. The bar is really low. That's kind of good for you. The second thing I realized is that you don't have to know everything. Even if you know a small thing that has value for your audience, a little thing, that's enough. Talk about that for 40 minutes. And you can. You don't have to have the answers to the secrets of the universe. Do you know something that would be useful to your audience? Yes? Good. Go for it. Do it. Run with it. So a little piece of advice is, if you're stuck for an idea, think about ways that you would challenge the conventional wisdom in your industry or field. And talk about that. Saying, everyone says, Do zig. But I'm telling you, You should zag. Here's why. There's a speaking topic.

Jesse Butts: 26:20

I'm guessing we're kind of in the 2000s now. you you're, you're pretty well established. You've done some speaking. At least from what I've seen from people's listings on websites, like, workshops can be kind of, I don't know if goldmine is really the right term, but they can be pretty lucrative. I know this is something that you've done as well. Are workshops something that, in your experience, a lot of speaking led to? Or how did you get to that position to be able to do those types of things?

Jonathan Kranz: 26:49

Well, it was a combination of feeling comfortable with speaking, and then also in 2004, I published Writing Copy for Dummies. So, you know, those yellow and black Dummies books. So I wrote one, I wrote the one on copywriting. So that experience was interesting. No one ever picked up the book and then called me to give me business. That never happened. So that did not happen. I have gotten the calls, of course, from other writers saying, Gee, how did you get the book deal? Can you tell me what the secret is? Or, Gee, I'd like to start as a copywriter. Can you help me? And usually I do help . But what it really did, the virtue of that book was that it opened up speaking opportunities and article writing opportunities. You know, it was the strength of the Writing Copy for Dummies that I had credibility with Marketing Profs. So I published a bunch of articles for Marketing Profs, and then I have credibility to organizations that have conferences, you know, host conferences and looking for speakers. The workshop, I'm trying to remember, I think I started that about ... 14 years ago? And I really did it as an experiment. I just said, I now offer this. And seeing would...you know, run up the flag and see if anyone would salute. What made my workshop distinctive is that I said, One, we would develop the curriculum together. There is no pre-made curriculum. We would have a conversation, talk about the outcome that you desired. And then I would customize a curriculum to the outcomes you want. It's all, exercise-based. And I got some bites. And a couple of things happened. One, I found that they are lucrative, or they can be. And number two is that I really enjoy doing them, and find that a very rewarding, meaningful experience helping other people become better at what they do or discover talents that they did not know they had. So that's always been an exciting part of my business. Not always, but it has become an exciting part of my business.

Jesse Butts: 28:46

What were you doing to, to learn the ropes of copywriting and marketing, especially since you, you didn't work somewhere full time for a couple of years to, to learn the ropes?

Jonathan Kranz: 28:58

That's right. So you made an interesting point. I learned after I launched a business that I had done it the wrong way. The thing I was supposed to do was get some years of experience either in-house, that is working for a, for a company, right, on their in-house marketing team. Or for an agency. And I had done neither. I just started freelancing. And I didn't know that was novel until after I did fulfill the novelty. This audience, the temptation will be to go back to school to learn something new. And think about it. If you're a person that you finished undergraduate, then you're, you're able to actually get into a grad school, which is not necessarily that easy. You have to, you know, the, the application process can be a real pain in the butt. You go to grad school. And now you're, you may have debt from undergrad. Debt from grad school. And you realize I want a change. You know, whatever, whatever reason, whatever you studied in grad school is not going to be it. So the thing is you'll say that, I need something else. You may think, OK I'll go to school again, or I'll go through a certificate program. I would discourage that. I would say, do something different this time. And that is, find a way to learn independently or learn on the job. And if there is a certificate or another graduate degree involved that's necessary, let the employer pay for it if you can. So what I did specifically in my case is that no, I did not get into a certificate program for marketing or marketing copy. I did two things. I did that networking I told you about. And also that networking also included some events that were instructive in nature. That became very important to me, like this is a program on copywriting. Great. I attended those. I also read some books. People forget that books are still a major resource, even with the web. And in fact, that could be your secret weapon, is that you're willing to sit down and invest the time to actually read a book, or many books, cover to cover, which a lot of people reluctant to. I found, especially how helpful, for those of you interested in copywriting, John Caples' Tested Advertising Methods is a classic from back in the Dark Ages, I think of the 40s or 50s. But it's still a masterpiece, still relevant today. Another book I liked is Ogilvy on Advertising. That book is as informative as it is fun and enjoyable to read. Ogilvy has a lot of wisdom to share and I learned a lot from him. And then you just pick up things like, you know, if you could attend conferences, you could pick up things through osmosis. Not just through the sessions, but in your networking, your BS-ing with other people, you learn this stuff. And then finally, you know, you, the ultimate way you learn is you learn by doing it, right. Trial and error and that kind of thing. But I really would encourage people to say your next step, see what measures you can take to learn without having to acquire any more debt. Or absorb more of your time because that's really burdensome.

Jesse Butts: 31:50

So with all of these experiences and with all of these things, your business offers, what have you found most enjoyable about your work?

Jonathan Kranz: 31:58

It's the satisfaction of knowing that I helped other people do their jobs and reach their goals. That I actually contributed something meaningful that moved things forward, especially if it's challenging. I like the challenging stuff, not the sexy, easy stuff. I like the difficult stuff. And I find it really exciting too, to in the hard work, the hard thinking, you know, consider what avenues are of attack are really available. Pursue them as effectively as you can. And then you'd get the share in the satisfaction that just have a job well done, but a job well done with other people who are counting on you. And together you've collectively made something meaningful happen. And I think that's the single most, in general, gratifying. When I do the training, it's really the, the contact with other human beings. It's incredibly exciting when you realize someone's gotten it. When you see that light bulb go off over their head, when they put up their hands and like, Oh, I get it. You know, that is just such a rewarding experience when you're a teacher and one of your students, one of the people that you're working with, suddenly has that insight, that breakthrough, and they got it. That's incredibly satisfying.

Jesse Butts: 33:09

Would you say you love your job? Do you like your job? How important is job fit to you?

Jonathan Kranz: 33:15

I'm going to say this. I'm going to contradict everything that, most everything you've heard from every job seeking guru out there. Don't follow your passion. What I mean is you go on to LinkedIn, you read people's profiles, guaranteed 99% of them will have the words, I have a passion for....

Jesse Butts: 33:35

Industrial waste management.

Jonathan Kranz: 33:36

Whatever it is. Right. Exactly. You know? And no one cares what you have a passion for. First of all. It doesn't matter. I'm not gonna hire someone because you have a passion. Like industrial waste management. If I needed an industrial waste manager, I don't care if you're passionate about it. All I care about is that you're good at it. That's it. And conversely, from the other side, the actual practitioner. You don't have to be passionate about something to be good at something. I read a wonderful book years ago, it was a non-fiction book that was profiling different law enforcement officers. And there was one officer who was an expert in ballistics. And he was an interesting guy because unlike almost every single one of his colleagues in ballistics, he was not a gun enthusiast. He only had two guns, his service revolver, or pistol, whatever it was, his service firearm. And then a firearm that had been his grandfather's many years before that he kept as an heirloom. That's it. He wasn't a collector. He didn't, he didn't love guns. However, he was acknowledged as one of the best ballistics experts in the country. He was excellent at what he did. And so it wasn't about, he was passionate about guns. He was passionate about being a conscientious, dedicated professional. And so he did fantastic work. And the way I feel, too, is you'll often hear someone say, you know, people say, Never run from something, run to something. Have an aspiration to run to. And I would say, well, that's a privilege. You know, if you're in a position where you can run to something, that's a wonderful thing, mazel tov to you. But for many of us, we do need to run from something. For me, I wanted to get out of wage labor. I wanted to have, to be independent. I wanted the greater flexibility to be, spend more time with my kids during the day, rather than being tied to a desk. And so, yes, I was running from wage labor to something that would give me independence. So, I approach marketing, marketing copywriter, not because I fell in love with marketing copy, but because I recognized that copywriting was a way, a means for me to achieve independence. And it, you know, my passion is really more for freedom than for writing per se.

Jesse Butts: 35:45

I'm interested in what you were mentioning about passion. You were an art major, you have an MFA in creative writing. You, you mentioned that, you, you scratched the itch and, and got a novel out. Do you sometimes feel like, I really want to spend you know, some evenings and weekends painting? Or, or writing stories or what have you? What is your relationship to that now?

Jonathan Kranz: 36:08

It's a, it's complicated. You know, I do get that impulse now and again. But I gotta tell you, it's really hard to sustain that kind of disciplined commitment to really succeed in, in either of those things. You know, because that's what it takes. It takes that kind of disciplined, systematic dedication to really succeed. So, you know, I vacillate. Sometimes I go, it's, I'm fine. I'm happy with the way things are. And I have hobbies and interests that I pursue and that's good enough. And there are other times when I go, Gosh, you know, I wish I could make a greater mark on the world. You know, do I have a story to tell? Do I have something beautiful to show? And, and, and, and, and the answer is eh, not that I can think of at the moment. So I would say, I'd say Jesse, that the doors aren't closed, but, you know, I don't see any immediate plans for a creative venture in either direction necessarily, but, who knows. I could be taken by surprise tomorrow, find inspiration, develop the discipline and, and be back on, you know, back active in something again, it could happen.

Jesse Butts: 37:06

I remember from a previous conversation, I mean, you mentioned you were into architecture and art. And I mean, you, you've mentioned reading, you know, a number of books that were more on the practical side. It sounds like you're still if not creating.

Jonathan Kranz: 37:21

Oh, absolutely. If you saw like the, the magazines I subscribe to and, you know, and the things I, you know, like for instance, one of my favorite magazines, it's called Ugly Things. And three times a year, they come out. Basically it's not even a magazine. I'd call it a book. It's like 250 pages, eight and a half by 11 or 12. And it's dedicated to obscure music in the period 65 to 75. So a lot of psychedelia, garage rock, all that, uh, especially the forgotten stuff. You know, the local hometown heroes that maybe cut one seven inch and then disappeared forever. This is what Ugly Things concentrates on. And, and that's part of my hobby, part of the records is, you know, exploring obscure music. And so, yeah, I love getting, you know, reading about that. I also subscribe to a magazine called Fungi. Yes, fungus. You know, so I'm interested in mycology. I'm excited that spring is beginning because that means in a few more months, mushroom season is beginning, and I can go back outdoors and hunt for mushrooms, which is a hobby that I love. And that is a passion. It's just something I love to do. And I also, you know, I have other things. I just, I'm learning more about natural history. I'm spending more time outdoors. And I still have a love of art. Love going to museums. If I come to a conference in your city, yeah, I'm probably gonna play hooky, skip the talks, and go to your local art museum. That's probably what's going to happen in reality. So yeah, those passions, those loves are still there, but I don't know that I'm necessarily a contributor.

Jesse Butts: 38:48

And just for listeners behind Jonathan is what I'm guessing is probably four to 500 LPs behind you?

Jonathan Kranz: 38:56

Well, yeah, there's at least that. And I have a total of around 4,500. So this is, you know, would that time I spent hunting for these records, be better spent building my business? Probably. But those are the choices I made, and, you know, I'm okay with that.

Jesse Butts: 39:13

So this has been great, and I'm just kind of wondering as we wrap things up, What questions should someone in grad school, maybe a few years out, or maybe at any stage really, be asking themselves if they really think that their discipline isn't going to work out and they're considering something outside their field of study?

Jonathan Kranz: 39:35

I would say a couple of questions. One question I would ask myself is, What skills or areas of knowledge have I acquired along the way, and either, or both my undergraduate and graduate careers, that could have applicability and meaning and other contexts? For instance, in the sciences, you may have become really adept at research or statistical analysis. Well, guess what? Those are skills that are valued in multiple contexts beyond pure science. Right. In my case, it was obviously communications, writing. So where could I apply that in a way that would be, that would enable me to have a living? So I think you want to look at, kind of do an inventory of the things that you are able to do and say, Where else would that be valuable? I think that that would be extremely useful. And then apply on top of that some filters. So first filter might be, OK of all the things where I could apply myself that's outside my specific field, what would I find satisfying or at least interesting? And even if you're not passionate about it, would at least find doing... like I find doing the work very satisfying. I like succeeding. I like being successful as a writer. I enjoy doing good work for my clients. You want to say, What else could you imagine yourself doing that, even if it's not your dream, still would be satisfying labor. I think you would ask about too ,obviously, is, Who else needs those kinds of skills? Where else are those needed? That's really the same question, just spinning it 180 degrees. But those are the questions I'd start with. And then I'd go, in a very practical way, What are the realistic opportunities available to me? So that would depend on where you're located. Who you know. Networking contacts, for example. You really do want to think where are those opportunities? And I'm not talking pie in the sky stuff. I'm talking about real ground level stuff that you could actually get into. Sometimes those practicalities are that there's a job you could actually get to, you know, that's not an hour and a half commute, but something you could say, yes, I could do this. I could have whatever the context of my personal life is. This is a doable vocation. So those are the questions you want to ask. Where else are my skills and expertise applicable? Who needs those kinds of skills and expertise? What would I find satisfying? And what practical opportunities exist adjacent to me?

Jesse Butts: 42:01

All right. If people want to check out your business, where should they go? And if they're curious about your novel...

Jonathan Kranz: 42:10

So first off, to learn more about my business, just Google my name, Jonathan Krantz. K-R-A-N-Z. And you'll end up at Krantz Communications. I think the website is www.kranzcom.com. And there's a bunch of, there's an outdated blog that I haven't updated in I'm embarrassed to say how long. But there's a lot of good, useful content out there, especially if you're a copywriter. There are actually good how to articles and some stuff that are free to download. You don't have to give me your email address. It's totally anonymous. It really is absolutely free. There's information out there. My novel is a, a young adult novel called Our Brothers at the Bottom of the Bottom of the Sea.

Jesse Butts: 42:48

Well, thank you, Jonathan. This was a great conversation.

Jonathan Kranz: 42:51

Thank you, Jesse. It was a great pleasure. And I wish you the best of luck and the best of luck is anyone listening?